John Graham Interview

Graham Interview in hEyOka magazine

2011-09-16T12:06:00.001-07:00

Position Statement by antoinette nora claypoole, Aug. 2008

2008-08-05T10:18:00.000-07:00

antoinette statement/update Aug. 08
(click here for Graham interview)

My position of journalistic neutrality regarding the person/people who killed Annie Mae Aquash remains intact as the John Graham trial proceeds. Like some other journalists who have/are covering this case, I was contacted by Marty Jackley in the Summer of 2008. His calls and words to me were of concern. I contacted a lawyer. To protect my rights as a writer. The Prosecution wanted my testimony based on an interview I did with Graham. Which can be found below, in it's entirety. Here was/is my reply to the Feds:

"Being true to my principles, very clear about standing for writer's rights and the integrity of my profession I will and have not disclosed sources/info about this case with any of the Rapid CIty, S. Dakota legal teams in their preparation for trial. I have simply authenticated the transcript of my writings/interviews via these web pages. Further, per suggestion of my civil rights attorney: other than that which is already in the public domain, I will neither speak outside of court nor share my notes/research on this case with any one "camp". posted by antoinette nora claypoole, Aug. 08

CIVIL RIGHTS: My position of journalistic neutrality regarding the person/people who killed annie mae remains intact as the trial date approaches. Because, like other journalists who have/are covering this case, I have been contacted by the Prosecution in S. Dakota, I must be true to my principles, be very clear about standing for writer's rights. I will neither discuss this case with any of the legal teams-- outside of court--nor share info on this with any one "camp".

I will stand for my journalist civil rights, as recently expressed to the U.S. Attorney in S. Dakota, after he contacted me (7.24.08) for "information". After retaining a brave and fine civil rights lawyer in Eugene, Oregon I am confident that the role of media in this case will be honored.

Advised by my attorney to say nothing more about my prior coverage of this case"until the matters at hand are settled", my writings/interviews do remain in the public domain, available for everyone to view.

MY POSITION: It is also important for the reader to know that throughout my years of covering Anna Mae Pictou Aquash's life and events surrounding her execution, including the Looking Cloud trial (for KPFK Pacifica Radio, Los Angeles) and Graham extradition hearings, I have stated that I do not know who her murderer(s) were/are. My efforts, writings and interviews were/are offered to present all sides of this story. (click here: old Looking CLoudtrial coverage/ audio clip fro 2004).

MORE about John Graham
posted by antoinette nora claypoole

TRIAL: The trial of John Graham, accused murderer of Anna Mae Aquash
began on Nov. 29, 2010 and is expected to last about three weeks.
It is happening in State Court in Rapid City, S. Dakota.

The Defense won an appeal to have the Federal charges dropped against Graham proving that the Feds had no jurisdiction over Graham. But he had already been extradited to the U.S. so the Prosecution simply quit their jobs as Federal Prosecutors and were sworn in as State Attorneys, where Graham is now standing trial.

HISTORY: Since December 2004 the "official" and "complete" version of the interview I did with John Graham has been on this blog. Along the way heyoka magazine published it (w/out the prologue), thus it has been on the net for nearly 4 years now. The transcripts (below) are/have been, all along, verbatim AND posted for all people wanting to hear the words of John Graham.

PHOTO: Annie Mae and Nogeeshik "marriage, Wounded Knee Seige, 1973"

AUTHENTICATION

Please note: for the sake of ALL involved it has been stated to legal teams for this case, via my attorney, Lauren Regan, that I personally authenticate the interview with John Graham found on these pages as having been conducted by me, on said date, with all recordingds done at KPFKA radio studios in L.A. Transcribed verbatim.
posted by antoinette nora claypoole 8.7.08
revised Dec. 5, 2010

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF JOHN GRAHAM INTERVIEW

recorded in the studios of Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los Angeles

March 30, 2004

PROLOGUE

A man born and raised in Haine's Junction, Yukon Territory, a father and Citizen of the Champagne and Aishihik First Nation in what colonizers call Canada, this Southern Tutchone man is under house arrest. Fighting court extradition to the United States. In Vancouver, British Columbia, John Graham, walks each day to check in with officials, working to make sense of another time and place come to haunt him. Friends betraying him, some in Indian Country demanding yet another lynching.

What about his role as murderer of Anna Mae? I ask him this. What about a tape some claim indicts him heavily?? What does the First Nations man, John Graham, have to say about all this??? I asked him these questions over and over.

In the interview which follows you can read for yourself his responses. But what strikes deep is one thing. According to Graham the U.S. government had plans for HIM as far back as 1988. They threatened to “ruin his life”. Over the past 17 years there were visits by the FBI into Graham’s life in the Yukon. These visits are documented through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who first escorted the FBI to Graham’s home back in the late 1980’s. Offering him immunity to a crime he claims he “did not do,” the FBI were demanding Graham name names of people who killed Annie Mae. In exchange the FBI would give him a “new life.”

So. Where ARE the truths which must be heard in all of this????

Maybe like the haunting BIA official Robert Ecoffey supposedly encountered so many years ago, maybe the voices of the silenced are whispering into the psyches of even the most unlikely. So. I dream this chance for people to hear other sides of stories…I imagine in my long nights of breathing “who, who?” like some kind of goddamn owl in the low riding nightmare of this…I imagine not death. Rather. A place where people wisdomseek in the darkness. Sense for themselves what the quest for truth really demands.

Still. Disturbed. By the clamberings of lie detector techno mania and potentially altered “tape recordings,” I sought to find the Indian/First Nations man being dragged into the square, a knotted noose awaiting his neck. In my heart I believe if there is a truth to be found, all sides must be heard. A place for a fair trial must be manifest. And many agree that the racist state of South Dakota may not be the best place for that to happen. Maybe John Graham deserves to be tried by his own people.

So. I took a desire for truth. And my wondering of how a government threatening to kill Anna Mae can be trusted to find her murderer. I took these things three days after what would have been Anna Mae’s 59th birthday to an interview of John Graham. From a small radio studio in North Hollywood. He in the North Country. Far from American dreamweaver machines. Still. Both places bound by a wind. Which pushed me to ask the hard questions. And insists a listen to some painful remarks which provoke yet more and more questions. Who murdered Anna Mae….why and when ….the haunting brutal mystery is far from over.

RECKONING WINDS OF THE YUKON:
an interview with John Graham

by antoinette nora claypoole

FULL INTERVIEW, March 30-31 2004

antoinette claypoole: Alright, so what I want to start with, John Graham, is… tell us a little bit about your life before this indictment happened. What you have been doing over the last several years for First Nations people. The kinds of activism and activities that you were working on before this indictment was handed to you by the United States government.

John Graham: I’ve been working with the movement at different levels for many years, since the early 70s. But when these indictments all came down, well…. I haven’t been involved with the movement for a few years; I’ve been living up in the Yukon raising my children. My children became my movement. I just dropped out of everything and concentrated on raising my children. And that’s what I was doing when this all first came up in the mid-80s or sometime about there.

The FBI showed up at my home in the Yukon, and asked me all kinds of questions about Anna Mae and the death. They were trying to say I was there, or I knew about it, or I was aware of it. And I had to tell them I wasn’t aware, I wasn’t around there and I wasn’t involved in her killing at all. And they wanted me to name leadership that would have given the order to that effect, to kill Anna Mae. And they were trying to tell me they would put me in the witness protection program, they would change my identity, they would relocate me if I would go to testify in front of the federal Grand Jury in South Dakota against the AIM leadership. So I told them I couldn’t do that because it never happened.

I never, ever received orders of any kind like that from any of the AIM leadership. And so I wouldn’t do it; I wouldn’t cooperate with them.

And they left. Then they came back a year or so later and said, “Well, now there’s a possibility that she could have been kidnapped. There’s a possibility that she was raped. And she was murdered.”

And if I didn’t cooperate with them to put this information on the AIM leadership, then I would be facing all these charges myself.

AC Who was speaking to you at that time?

JG I can’t remember the particular agent’s name, but it was an agent out of Minnesota. Out of Minneapolis.

AC So, it was agent who came up from, it was a special agent?

JG Yea, of the FBI…He identified himself. And he came with the RCMP. (Royal Canadian Mounted Police).

AC Do you remember a timeline on that, John?

JG Not really. It was….I think it was probably around the month of February, because it was really cold….OK, by the records I think it was 1988..

AC So, at the time of the visit, and we’re going to get back to the visits again, because that’s a very important piece of information you’ve shared with us. But, I also think it’s important for those of us down here in the States who don’t know you, people overseas who have rallied to your defense, that we get to know you a little more. So, you were raising your kids at the time of this, your children. And that was your biggest commitment in life, is that right?

JG At that time, yea. I worked construction; I’m a construction worker and a pipe layer. I install water, sewer, and storm systems. I’d been doing that for years. Prior to that, my involvement with AIM was like, I was involved with the anti-uranium mining movement, peace movement, back in the 70’s, 80’s. I was very active around opposing the uranium mining developments in Saskatchewan, Canada. And doing a lot of work. I’ve always done, as you know, whatever I could, wherever I could for Leonard, and making Leonard’s story known.

AC Leonard Peltier?

JG Yes. And I’ve been doing that for years. I’ve toured, I’ve been across the country a few times, you know, on behalf of Leonard, and behalf of the anti-uranium mining efforts. I’ve toured Europe with this. I’ve always constantly at different times trying to do whatever I could to expose the crimes that have been committed against Leonard.

AC Alright, and so you were active in that, and had some children, and decided to kind of home-in and become a father to the kids?

JG Yes.

AC So you, while you were raising your children, you started receiving visits from the FBI and the United States?

JG That’s correct. Yes.

AC Alright. Now, your friend Matt Lien mentioned that he thought there were at least four visits over the last fifteen years.

JG That’s right. That’s right.

AC ….You mentioned the first visit which was offering you immunity and a new identity, is that correct?

JG Yea. The second visit I think, I’m sure it was the same agent that came up. And again the same deal was offered, and again I refused.

And that’s when they started talking about well the possibility she was kidnapped. The possibility she was raped. And Then they started telling me about this guy Robert Pictou Branscombe.

They said the he’d been, I guess relieved of, or resigned from the Army. And that he’d been in Vietnam, and he was a well-decorated soldier, and that he just recently, or at the time, realized or come to enlightenment that he was somehow related to Anna Mae. And that he was determined to find out how she was killed, or who killed her. And they warned me then that he was coming, and he was going to start opening up this case, you know and he was gong to, they warned me about this Branscombe guy that was going to come and he wasn’t going to let it go until he made a case.

So, OK, then the third visit was from a U.S. Marshall, Ecoffey, Robert Ecoffey.

AC Now, do you have a sense of time again?

JG Oh, this was maybe a year or two after the second visit.

AC And the second visit was?

JG Oh, must have been, again, late ‘80’s, ’89, ‘90.

AC OK, so now this third visit is a couple years later.

JG Maybe ’94, or something, Ecoffey came up. And he started telling me that, well he explained who he was. That he was BIA police at the time working on Pine Ridge. And that he had worked close, he was more or less considered a goon at the time. He worked close with the goons.

So I knew now he was a decorated U.S. Marshall, and he was saying he was the first Indian to ever carry that honor, or whatever. And that he had this dream while he was at the Pine Ridge police station about Anna Mae crying to him in the cell.

AC And did you believe him when he told you this story?

JG Oh, no, no. (laughs) No Not at all. How can this guy that was a goon, that was a bootlegger, and probably did a lot to beat and terrorize these people….So how could this guy have a spiritual revelation all of a sudden? And he’s having visions?

AC Right. So he wasn’t very believable to you.

JG No, not at all. And then once he explained who he was and his history, then I had nothing to say to him. I agreed to a meeting with him, though….on that third visit, well, he come up to me at my workplace.

AC He’d found you.

JG Ya. At first, I wouldn’t, I had nothing to talk to him about.

He wanted to meet at the police station, and I said no, I don’t go there.
He wanted to meet in a hotel room, and I didn’t,

so I said, “OK, I’ll talk to him out in the park where there’s lots of witnesses. “ So, we did that; we had a talk. And that’s where he told me they’d see to it that all these charges got laid on me because, again, I wouldn’t cooperate.

You know, they want to place me in these places that I hadn’t been, and put me around in getting orders from these people that at the time I hardly knew.

AC And so he was talking to you in the park, you agreed to talk to him in the park that day. Now, was that the same day or was that a couple days later?

JG It was That was that evening.

AC And did you have family keeping an eye out for you? Did you tell anybody about this?

JG Yes. I had relations and family that were around in the park and were watching everything….I think there might have been another Marshall with him, or somebody from the States with him. And then he had a whole, like an army of RCMP. That were escorting him around.

AC OK. And you were able to see them?

JG Oh, ya, they were right there, involved with interrogating and talking to me.

AC Did you see any visible recording equipment?

JG Not visible, but they did put a briefcase down in front of me, which I figured had a recorder in it. And the next morning, driving my daughter to school; I used to drive her to school quite early, and driving by the park I could see a whole team of RCMP police out there where I’d been sitting, and I think they were trying to scrape DNA or whatever off where I was sitting in the park that night.

AC And that visit, in the park there with Ecoffey, he was still trying to get you to admit things, or was he being more hostile at that point?

JG Well, he was saying there were all kinds of people starting to speak out and starting to talk about me, that I’d been here and I’d been there, you know, and my name keeps coming up and this is why they’re you know coming after me.

That’s what he said.

And he said they were going to keep coming and not going to let it go, and they intend to lay this on me one way or the other.

AC And was he speaking about Branscombe at that point, or was he talking about the Feds, the Federal government at that point? Was he saying the Federal government was going to lay this on you?

JG Yea, It was because he was representing the United States Marshalls, and he was in that capacity, so I took it as it was coming from the States.

AC Right. And did he offer you a deal?

JG Oh, the same one, you know. And again, I refused it.

AC Can you tell us one more time that same deal, third time from Robert Ecoffey, the deal he offered you?

JG Well, he wanted me to name places that I’d been. He wanted me to name the AIM leadership that supposedly gave orders. And they named ALL the AIM leadership. Not just a couple of them, but they named all of them….including John Trudell.

AC Including Dennis Banks??

JG Yea and Russell Means, the Bellecourts.
Right. And they wanted me to finger one or all of them, and I refused. And that’s when they said, “Well. You’re going to take all these charges yourself.”

All I could say is, “You guys are going to do whatever you’re going to do. There’s nothing I can do about it.” So I left it at that.

AC Alright, now you had a fourth visit. So you left it at that. They left you alone for how long would you say, before you had that last visit?

JG I couldn’t remember exactly. It was a year or two again.

AC OK, so fourth visit. What happens then?

JG More of the same, I guess. They wanted me to talk, and they came up to my house, and I wouldn’t talk to them. And I more or less just left them standing at the door. You know, I got tired of….and they’re consistently and persistently coming back at me and, you know, and coming in numbers, so to the neighborhood it looks like the whole troupe is moving in.
…They’re standing around out in front, you know?

AC So after that last visit again you said no, there’s no place they could go, did you ever think they would actually indict you?

JG No, no. I didn’t think it would ever get this far.

AC And why is that, John?

JG Well because there’s just no truth, no real to it, you know? I just couldn’t see how, you know?

AC There’s a video clip running on the Internet right now of an interview with you. It’s on www.danieltv.com/ and on that video clip you mention, and I have the quote here, that they asked you to identify her murderer, and they told you either you would cooperate, or they would ruin your life.

JG Yea. That’s more or less the words the FBI agent told me.

AC And did they say that to you?

JG He was looking at my house and my family, and he mentioned to the effect, “Oh, you’ve got a nice home here, and nice family, you know, good job and stuff, and we’ll wreck it for you.”

AC did that rattle you at all, John?

JG Well, yea, in a sense it did. Because this guy was directly threatening me. If I don’t cooperate with him and tell his story, then you know, yea. And I’ve been around, I was down at Oglala Pine Ridge. I know how serious these people are. So when they make threats, I know it’s not idle.

AC….And that last visit, was again, who was visiting you on that fourth visit?

JG Ecoffey again.

AC So that’s a lot to have gone through, and after that fourth visit, again I know it’s hard with time, but approximately, after that fourth visit when you refused to cooperate again, how long after that before the indictments came down in Denver last spring?

JG Well, it was what…. I can’t remember the exact date the last time they came up, but it must have been around ’96 or something.

AC So, there were a good several years, five or six years before you heard anything. So you had a respite there. Now you must have heard that they were naming you, and they were naming Arlo.

JG Yea, and I think it was ’96 that I became aware of everything that had been happening on the Internet. See, I’m not plugged into the Internet at all, and I didn’t know all this stuff had been carried on, on the Internet for probably years, by that point. And all this stuff that was going on, I had no clue it was happening, until around ’96 the I realized….I started seeing the web pages, and people started bringing it to my attention. And I realized, “Whoa, this is getting pretty serious.” And I had to deal with that, and, but still like you know I can’t go and testify against somebody that I don’t know ever happened.

AC OK, so that, perhaps, leads us to the sort of odd unfoldings in the last ten days. We’re at the end of March 2004, and in the last ten days or two weeks, there’s been a particular group who claim to be a group of indigenous women who have challenged your truth, and claim they have evidence against you.

They recently did release a supposed tape, where they recorded you and you more or less admit to the timeline and the scenario of Anna Mae’s death that was presented by Arlo Looking Cloud at his trial this past February. Do you have a comment about this tape?

Maybe we could start with if you even remember speaking to a journalist, and where this tape might have emerged in reality. Obviously your voice is on there somewhere. Where do you think this tape came from? Did someone interview you, and can you recall that situation?

JG Well, I’ve been interviewed lots of times over the last few years. And every time I’ve been interviewed, it’s been construed, or chopped, or I don’t know. All I can say to that is if they’ve got this tape where I’m saying all these things, and I know they don’t, but if they say they do, why isn’t it on the evidence table?

AC Have they released the tape to you and your team in Canada?

JG No. I read about it yesterday in the paper.

AC And they had contacted you last week and tried to get a comment about it?

JG Right. And there’s some mention of it in the extradition papers.

AC Now, there’s a reference to this tape in the extradition papers?

JG There’s a reference to some kind of tape in the extradition appeal here, that I said some things, or placed myself at places that Arlo had placed me at. That I’m supposedly admitting to all this stuff. No. If they’ve got this, then put it on the evidence table. Let’s bring it forward.

AC But according to one of your attorneys, Terry Liberte, the extradition process in Canada has now, supposedly decided not to let your attorneys or yourself view the evidence that the United States is holding. And that was originally going to be available. Is that right?

JG What they’re doing, they used Ecoffey’s name and the different agents’ names and everything that came up to get me arrested. But now for the extradition they take these agents out. They’re not being used as witnesses.

AC So they’ve changed the evidence presented originally?

JG,Yea and Ecoffey claims to be the one that opened the case back in the ‘90’s. And why isn’t he called? His trips up here to Canada should be on the evidence table.

AC So you’re not able to review all this evidence, right? Your attorneys and yourself, you can’t see any of this?

JG No.

AC So, this tape that we’re speaking of, that supposedly has some kind of confession, or places you in a timeline, is something neither you nor your attorneys have been able to listen to? And a particular media person contacted you saying he had heard that particular tape?

JG He won’t give me any source of where he got his tape, other than this organization here, this women’s group…,

AC Seems like their history is a little sketchy. Yes. And so the fact is you haven’t been able to view this tape now. Even in the article in The New York Times, an AP article, there is mention of you placing yourself Pine Ridge, with Arlo, with Annie Mae, with Theda. Can you speak a little to the last time you saw Annie Mae, and does this fit what they’re saying, what the tape says? Wait, before we go there, John, I know naming names is hard but for those of us in the media in the United States, do you have a sense of which journalist of all the one interviewed you might be the on who’s flaunting this tape around?

JG He was from South Dakota. He was a young guy, long hair, cowboy boots. Said he was from Rapid City, or worked around Rapid City, and I think he’s out of Europe somewhere. And I can’t remember his name. He said he wrote for a magazine called Stand. I think that’s the guy. But on the evidence thing there, where it talks about the tape, it’s signed by “CW”. And I asked, “What’s CW?” And they just was “Concerned Witness.” Don’t they have to produce a name? Can’t I face my accusers? Just a concerned witness. I said concerned witness, or something Walker?

AC Well, there is a journalist named Carson Walker. He is actually the person who wrote the New York Times article, and he is the person who they let listen t the tape. So, let’s go to the last,

JG Well, he’s saying I admitted to this stuff when the tape recorder was shut off.

AC So let’s go, John, to the last time you saw Annie Mae. Kind of tell us a little about that last time you spent time with her.

JG Last time when we drove from Denver to Pine Ridge, and you know that ride there going to Pine Ridge, and talking with her, gearing up. And then gettin to a safe house.

Well she went in to talk to people in the house, and she came back out, and she said she was all right there, and we went back to Denver. That was the last time I saw Anna Mae.

She was talking to me during that ride about her arrest in Oregon, and about Price, agent David Price, and this other agent that were interrogating her and hunting her at the time. And she was very scared about the possibility of running into Douglas Durham, who I’m sure she had connected to Juancita Eagle Deer’s death. And I think she might have even had information connecting him to her. And she was very scared that she would run into Durham, and he was going to do harm to her. And with Price she was very scared of Price because Price did threaten her. Told her she’d be dead within a year. And the fact that he had written in his books, his notebooks a detailed description of every part of her. Markings on her body…

AC When did he get those descriptions of her? Did she speak about how that interrogation happened?

JG When she was, I guess, arrested in Oregon. And transferred her back to South Dakota. And it was during that time that he made the threat, I guess. And took a detailed, like she told me it was a detailed description. Every mark on her body, even the labels of her clothing he marked in his notebook.

Full description of her jewelry, her medicine pouch, and all of this stuff. So he had a detailed description of all of this stuff, and she was very scared about that, and you know the fact that they were very capable. And there were a LOT of people being killed at that time. The tension at Pine Ridge was extreme. Violence was like every second day.

AC So there was foundation for her fear; it wasn’t she was just this paranoid person. This was happening all the time.

JG No, no, no. There was definitely, definite fear.

AC Now, how did you end up driving Anna Mae from Denver?

JG We knew each other, because we’re both from Canada. We were…. If I was around and she needed a hand with anything, she’d come ask me. I guess she heard I was in Denver, and asked….so I went over to see her. We talked. And that’s when we talked. I talked to her there, and that’s when she started telling me she had to get out of that house because there was just too much traffic around there. And she was underground at that time, hunted by the FBI. So she was pretty shook up, and pretty paranoid about so many people being around in and out and all that.

So she asked me if I would go to Pine Ridge with her. So I agreed to. That’s what I did. And I agreed that if, you know, by chance, we got pulled over or the Feds got turned on to us, that I’d be the decoy while she got away.

And you know that’s what I did.

AC And there were a couple of people with you… was Arlo looking Cloud in the car with you?

JG Well, Arlo was there. He knew Pine Ridge. He knew how to get around. I don’t think….Theda wasn’t there. We might have used her car, but she wasn’t there. She stayed at home.

AC So, you remember Arlo being there with you, and he rode back with you?

JG Yea. And then after we got back to Denver, well I tell you the truth I’ve never seen Arlo since. And I didn’t, well it was only the first or second time I met the guy, too. When we took the ride, was cause well all his relations down there said he knew Pine Ridge; knew he back roads and stuff.

AC Oh, okay. And so everybody at the safe house there, at Troy Lynn Yellow Wood’s house, they knew you were going up to Pine Ridge to get Anna Mae out of there? Did they know you were on a mission to get Annie Mae to a safer place?

JG I don’t know what they knew….It was time to get out of that place. There was too much traffic.

AC So she didn’t….there was no trouble at that end as far as Annie Mae being able to get out of the house?

JG No, not at all. That’s why I can’t understand these people, all these witnesses, where they get off saying she was tied up and stuff? There’s no way.

So, that’s what we did. Then we went to Pine Ridge. I don’t know, might have been two, maybe three different houses there, and she stayed at the last one. And we drove back to Denver.

AC So, now, you got up to Pine Ridge, and you went to a few different houses?

JG Yea, two or three. I can’t really remember. And I never went into any of the houses, so I don’t know who they were.

AC Alright, so let’s go to this place where you’re saying this is the last time you saw Annie Mae alive, yea?…. dropping her off at this house…., sometime before Christmas?

JG I guess so, yea.

JG So, sometime before Christmas, you’re saying?

JG You know, to be quite truthfully I couldn’t really remember. I hate to guess.

AC Okay, so there was a ride up there.
There was a bit of a time that went by before you heard about Anna Mae’s death? Did you wonder what happened to her? Did you question was she still alive? I mean did you ever try to look for her after you dropped her off? What happened with your friendship and your connection with her between that time and the time you found she had passed away?

JG Well, I knew she was underground. You know. She was on the run and she was being hunted by the Feds, where I didn’t try to follow her. It’s safer.

When I heard about Anna Mae, I guess, I don’t know how much time later it was; it was a while later, I guess. I think I might have been on Pine Ridge I think maybe when the first autopsy was done. And there was talk….I remember people talking that they had an unidentified body at the hospital. And some people from pine ridge, I think there was an elderly woman I think who tried to go view the body, and the FBI wouldn’t let her. And that’s when they, I guess buried her as Jane Doe.

AC Did you wonder if it was Anna Mae, John?

JG I didn’t really know. You know? I didn’ t know. It seemed like, it was just a common thing….One of the things that got me about it was a week later, or a week and a half later they found Hubert Horse. Again, shot.

And that’s when I started getting a little concerned that the FBI were living up to their word. That they were going to get everyone that was involved in or around the Oglala shootout. I just had that feeling, You know.

AC Did you ever have a sense that the leadership of the American Indian Movement, I mean we even have Russell Means alluding to this, well not alluding, he’s actually saying there was AIM leadership targeting her. And certainly I’ve heard that myself, that there were certain people in the American Indian Movement who felt that Anna Mae was an informant. Had you heard that kind of accusation against her in your travels?

JG Just, well, from her.

AC From her, herself? She knew?

JG Well, she knew who they were. Like this John Blue Legs, or whatever his name was. He was in camp, and she pointed him out one day, and said, “This guy’s an agent and he’s starting stories; he’s starting rumors.” She pointed him out right in camp to me. And then you know so I was leery about these people and I kept my distance from them.

AC So she turned you on to some of the people who started stories against her. So she knew this was going on. What camp was that?

JG It might have been at Sundance camp, and it could have been at Leonard Crow Dog’s.

AC And what were some of the things that you and Annie Mae did together? Talk if you would, if you like, about your relationship. Some of things you did with AIM, some of the situations you survived together. You were quoted on the danieltv.com interview as saying that Annie Mae was your “sister in more ways than people can know.” You want to talk a little about some of the things you shared, about some of the times you went through together?

JG Well, I first met Anna at the Red Schoolhouse, in Minneapolis, or St. Paul. And got to know herth ere. And there was a call, or a request for help, I guess from Pine Ridge or something. And a lot of people went down there. This was in ’75. After Wounded Knee.

So we all went down there, several people went down.We were around Pine Ridge through some of the trials, the Custer trials were happening. Sarah Bad Heart Bull was being sentenced. Lots of things were happening, like state violence against people. And we were there…I was witnessing all of this.

It was such a shock to me, to see all of that state violence against such poor people.

AC So she was educating you as to what was going on within the government and the movement.

JG Yea, you know, steering me around making sure I didn’t get in with the wrong bunch, or something you know.

AC And so you traveled with her from the Red Schoolhouse down to Pine Ridge. Did you guys keep traveling together?

JG Yea, we went down to Farmington, we were at the Farmington convention, then back up to Pine Ridge again.

AC So you were at Farmington when she was accused of being an informant. Did she talk about that?

JG No, she never….she was kind of pissed off that there was rumors. But, there were rumors going around about everybody, like I was an informant, too. (laughs) So we didn’t take it that serious.

AC I mean you weren’t an informant, but you were being called, you were being accused of being an informant.

JG I mean, ya, everybody was leery….and that was the kind of atmosphere that was happening.

AC So you didn’t witness any of this so-called… in the Arlo Looking Cloud trial Kamook Banks came out and said there were guns pulled on Annie Mae, and she was cornered. You did not witness any of that?

JG No, and I do not believe it for a minute. Not for a minute. Total bogus, because you know Leonard and Anna Mae were close, and that I witnessed. And I know that they were very dear friends. And Anna Mae was, you know, the last time I seen her, she not only wanted to be at Pine Ridge, but she wanted to reconnect with Leonard.

So there’s just no way that within that circle that anybody doubted her.

AC Now, there were people that questioned her being an informant.

JG I don’t know who would have questioned her, but maybe it did happen, but she never mentioned that to me.

AC you never witnessed it, and she never talked about it?

JG No, she mentioned though that this John Blue Legs, and pointed him out to me, had been in Farmington, too. Doing the same, you know.

AC Stirring things up.

JG Yea. And that’s who she was mad at, and others like him that she didn’t know about but that were out there. And that kind of stuff goes on when you’ve got gatherings of 300, 400, 500 people.

AC Do you know if this John Blue Legs was close with the old AIM leadership back then? Or did he have any say about decisions?

JG I’m not sure what his history is with AIM, or how he’d come to be he’d always seem to be around.

AC And was he close to some of those guys?

JG I wouldn’t know. I kept my distance from him.

AC Alright. So you traveled with Annie Mae from the Red Schoolhouse, you kind of hung out with her. Do have some favorite story from your connection with her that you would want to share with us? Something that helps us know her and her ways and how she was in those days?

JG Well, the only thing I could say, I guess, to try to help people realize that. Like Leonard or Dennis or myself never thought she was an informant, you know, we went back into Oglala together immediately after the shootout.

AC After the shootout, you and Anna Mae went into Oglala?

JG And Hubert Horse.

AC And Hubert Horse was with you?

JG And another brother by the name of Richard Star that was from Canada, Saskatchewan. A lot of people risked a lot in their personal safety and their freedom, as well as laid their lives on the line, to help get these people off the reservation.

Because there was a massive man hunt going down. And you just don’t go into situations like that and come out, and you know you’re an informant. She would have turned everybody in right there. You know what I’m saying?

AC Say that again for me.

JG You don’t go into situations like that…we didn’t expect to live out the day….there’s no way after going through those experiences that I’d ever doubt her.

AC you’re saying some of those top guys also knew how committed she was. Laying herself on the line like that.

JG Yea, and that’s like when she went to Pine Ridge, her thing was trying to reestablish connection with Leonard so she could get back. You know

That was, the last time I saw her that’s what she was talking about. So there’s no way Leonard threatened her or put a gun to her head, or anything like that.

AC Do you have any recall of any stories about Kamook Banks being upset with her?
JG No, she didn’t talk to me about things like that.

AC She didn’t talk any girl talk?

JG No, she didn’t talk about any boyfriends.

AC Do you have a favorite story about her? If this was a more just world and you could talk to her daughters….

JG Well, things like that story about us going back into Oglala. It wasn’t an easy thing to do but we did it. And to me that’s very memorable. We came very close to being wiped out, and I know that. Those experiences are bonding. When you go through these experiences with people, and your life is threatened, and jeopardized.

AC So you guys had that deep connection, surviving that together. So how did she find you in Denver, how did she know?

JG Somebody came over to where I was staying. It could have been Troy Lynn, could have been Theda.

AC And what did they say?

JG That she was here, and if I could, could I go over and talk to her and speak to her. Those guys were pretty hot after her.

AC So now when she was found murdered, executed brutally, did you have a theory in your heart? Did you have a sense in your heart what had happened to her?

JG No. Once they identified her, and I realized it was her, and right after I said Hubert Horse was found the same way, I just figured the Feds were living up to what they said.

AC So, you did have a sense…of what might have happened to her.

JG Yea, Well, when I heard Agent Price was involved, I just figured, Agent Price was the first on the scene when they found her, is what I was told, and I think he was just confirming his kill.

AC So that’s what you felt from the beginning?

JG That’s what I still feel.

AC And still carry that with you all these years later. And so, have you, over the years in your own way honored her? How would you say in your own way you’ve honored Anne Mae and your friendship, and what she did for the People?

JG Well, I’ve always kept in my heart the direction, the things that we’ve talked about in the movement. The things we wanted to see happen there. The organizing and everything that was going on needed to happen more in Indian country. These are the things ideas we shared and talked about, and how that could be, and how we needed to educate the non-native people to the struggles of our people.

And to try to make then understand, and it was important that we were able to do that, and to verbally relay our message and relay our struggle. And those kind of things we’re always working at and trying to improve.

And over the years, I’ve always connected her death to Leonard’s case, and the whole thing with the land transfer, the uranium grab, the water rip-off that went down at that time. It was all connected. I read somewhere that like 330,000 acres was signed away to the United States Government at the same time as the Oglala shootout that nobody really knew about.

And then, okay, when you start to consider that we’re talking about billions and billions of dollars in resources. You know. And that kind of money, you’re going to get corruption in the highest places in government, and in corporations.

And that’s what South Dakota’s going through. Ever since Custer, I think. They’ve been doing that to the Lakotas and Dakotas continuously.

AC This harassment, this land-grabbing, this genocide, really.

JG Really. And that’s what it is. And I’m looking here reading through these transcripts of Arlo’s trial, here, and man It’s just….kangaroo court is too easy a term. It’s typical I guess, South Dakota.

AC Another drunk Indian.

JG Another drunk Indian attitude, yea.

AC Speaking of that trial, and those transcripts, in your heart, how did you feel when you’re seeing some of the statements from people who might have been friends of yours, that you may or may not have expected to testify the way that they did, how are you feeling about that? What goes through your heart and mind?
JG Well, it hurts. You know. It hurts really deep. These people that are doing this, that are taking this stand, and this rumor’s been persistent I guess for years now. Why, WHY? couldn’t any one of these people have come and talked to me, or ask me about it? Over all these years, if they were hearing the rumours, why couldn’t they come talk to me?

AC So John Trudell never spoke with you?

JG Not a word, not a peep.

AC So no one never asked you if you were there at her murder?

JG None of the AIM leadership has ever talked to me about this, or anybody else for that matter. All the people who’ve written about this story, made documentaries about it.

AC Now the CBC interviewed you, right?

JG the Fifth Estate. Then they chopped it up. They interviewed me for three and a half hours, chopped it up and used one minute of my interview.

AC Right. So some of those people are old friends in that trial saying those things. What do you think has made them act this way, say these things?

JG I think the FBI did their job really well. Really Well. With their misinformation, and rumor mongering, and they just bought right into it. And took it hook, line and sinker. And now they all point the fingers, everybody’s pointing the finger at everybody, as I understand.

What’s that all about? They’re on each other. I don’t think you can get two of the AIM leadership in one room together for five minutes without probably doing each other in.

AC That’s divide and conquer. Old tactics.

JG Exactly. And they fell for it. And you know. So we’ll see, I don’t know. These people who want to cooperate with the FBI and make this thing farce carry on, is you know like to me in my mind, well they’re as bad as criminals. Criminals that are doing everything they can to keep Leonard incarcerated, and just incarcerated Arlo.

AC And have you spoken to Arlo since all of this happened.

JG No, I haven’t.

AC And how do you feel about his testimony? His defense was based on the fact that you pulled the trigger.

JG Well, if you listen to it all down there, everybody’s pointing the finger, putting the blame on me, because I’m the guy that’s not there to defend hisself. I must have been responsible for the whole reign of terror. And then, considering well I don’t know why Arlo… the whole thing is doctored.

He’s been coached all the way through. And what I hear about Arlo, he’s not very stable to start with.

AC Well, one would imagine if YOU were approached about this story and offered immunity, that the same thing happened with Arlo. I mean that’s how I feel about it. I know I’m not supposed to put my two cents in, but I do sometimes. So then the fact is that you feel that Arlo was approached with the same type of thing? You feel that most of the people that cooperated had the same kind of visits?

JG Probably. Probably And I believe that probably people like Trudell and that are coming up and testifying were probably threatened to be blackballed or blacklisted in LA. No more recording contracts. Or whatever. You know. They’ve got a lot of weight on these guys.

Russell Means is going for a pardon from Janklow. Can you believe that? I couldn’t. Where has this man’s mind gone to?

AC So, sometimes you feel alone in your strength? What keeps you going, John? What keeps you clear?

JG I believe in what I know to be right. What I know to be truth. That’s what keeps me strong. And as I believe in the truth, and that’s why I feel positive about this. And I want to make something positive out of all of this.

AC And how do you see that going? How do you see this next coming weeks? You’ve got an extradition hearing coming up, and after that?

JG I feel good. We went to court yesterday. We got another month, so April 30,is the next court date. That’s to appoint a judge, and to set a date for the actual extradition hearing to start. And we’ve got a team of four lawyers now, so I feel good about that. Extradition experts. We’re ready to fight the extradition; to oppose it any way we can…we’re still putting our legal team together.

AC So, what makes you positive. What keeps you going on this? What good do you imagine coming from this, John Graham?

JG What do I imagine good coming from this? You know If Anna Mae were alive today, if she were not locked up for the rest of her life like Leonard, she would be working dedicatedly 24/7 to free Leonard, and I know that. That’s way I believe. And all these people who are doing the finger-pointing and everything else, they talk about due process. Well, what about Leonard’s due process? If anything good can come out of this, then maybe the crimes against that man will be exposed, and maybe that man can be immediately and unconditionally freed. Because it is wrong what they’re doing to him.

AC And what about what they’re doing to you, John Graham?

JG Well Okay, I don’t like what they’re doing to me, and it’s pretty much torn my life apart and everything you know. But the forty days I spent in jail,there you know, all I could think about and what gave me strength to get through that was what Leonard had been going through for the last 27, 28 years. You know. And I have nothing to whine about. And yes this is a fight. Yes.

And we’ve been up against the state before; it’s not the first time. So things are not surprising me, the way they’re doing. That’s why I choose to remain positive about this, and I think somewhere we’re going to find a court that has some integrity. And that’s going to hear the case and hear the truth and hear all of the facts and not withhold any information, not with hold any evidence, not fabricate any evidence. And one of these days we’re going to find a court where indigenous activists could get a fair hearing.
And I am hoping that is here in Canada.

AC Do you have any final words to say to people in general, people who want either to support you, support your truth coming out.

JG Well, first of all, greetings to everybody. Warm greetings from my heart of happiness and health to everybody out there listening. And a very big thank you from my heart for all the supporters. And that is

This is going to be a fight. I understand that we’re in for a long fight, but the support is one of my main reasons why I’m so . positive. Because of the support I’ve been receiving since this all started happening. I never realized how big this thing mushroomed. And I’m so I’m really grateful for that. And I’d like people to know that. And log onto our web page; there’s information on how people can help. Write letters to our justice minister. To stop the extradtion. There is no fair trial in South Dakota. If the FBI can fabricate enough evidence to warrant a trial, then I would like that trial to be here in Canada.

EPILOGUE

The day after our studio interview was completed as I listened and began transcribing our conversation, I realized there were a few lingering questions I had of John Graham. Things which I needed to clarify. I contacted him via his support group and sent out a few more questions, and received, quite readily the following replies:

antoinette claypoole: Carson Walker, the journalist who wrote the piece recently published (March 2004)regarding a supposed tape in which you speak of Annie Mae's murder, Walker mentions he heard you saying, on a tape "Theda was driving the car when we left "kills" house" Do you remember ever saying that???

John Graham: What are they talking about? When are they talking about? I've never ever stated that I've been at "kill's" house. When I travelled with Anna Mae, I never went into the houses. That was Anna Mae's decision.

AC: How do you think Anna Mae was murdered??? Did you ever hear of her being alive after you left her at the Safe House???

JG: I could speculate - like everyone else but I think people should really be concentrating on looking at the role of the FBI and their goons - and the climate of violence and the killings that were going on at that particular time.

AC: Why do you feel all these people claim it is YOU who pulled the trigger.

JG: Because they have been duped by the disinformation campaign ... For every person who believes I did it, I bet there are a thousand who believe the FBI did it, but because the FBI and the State - all they ever have to do is deny and nobody ever questions them and that's wrong. Now, THAT's witholding evidence.

&*&*&*&*&*
about antoinette nora claypoole:
i am a freelance writer who recently covered the trial of Arlo Looking Cloud for Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los Angeles. during early december i will also cover the Graham extradition hearings for Pacifica, KFPK. my first book Who Would Unbraid Her Hair: the legend of Annie Mae was a tribute to the life and times of Anna Mae. more rants, click here.....

complete interview with John Graham

2004-12-03T16:01:00.000-08:00

August 7, 2008all rights reserved

AUTHENTICATION

Please note: for the sake of ALL involved it has been stated to legal tieams for this case, via my attorney, that I personally authenticate the interview with John Graham found on these pages as having been conducted by me, on said date, with all q & a's transcribed verbatim.
posted by antoinette nora claypoole 8.7.08

FULL TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW

JOHN GRAHAM, S. Tutchone
talks with
antoinette nora claypoole

recorded in the studios of Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los Angeles

March 30, 2004

PROLOGUE

RECKONING WINDS OF THE YUKON:
an interview with John Graham

by antoinette nora claypoole

FULL INTERVIEW, March 30-31 2004

antoinette claypoole: Alright, so what I want to start with, John Graham, is… tell us a little bit about your life before this indictment happened. What you have been doing over the last several years for First Nations people. The kinds of activism and activities that you were working on before this indictment was handed to you by the United States government.

John Graham: I’ve been working with the movement at different levels for many years, since the early 70s. But when these indictments all came down, well…. I haven’t been involved with the movement for a few years; I’ve been living up in the Yukon raising my children. My children became my movement. I just dropped out of everything and concentrated on raising my children. And that’s what I was doing when this all first came up in the mid-80s or sometime about there.

The FBI showed up at my home in the Yukon, and asked me all kinds of questions about Anna Mae and the death. They were trying to say I was there, or I knew about it, or I was aware of it. And I had to tell them I wasn’t aware, I wasn’t around there and I wasn’t involved in her killing at all. And they wanted me to name leadership that would have given the order to that effect, to kill Anna Mae. And they were trying to tell me they would put me in the witness protection program, they would change my identity, they would relocate me if I would go to testify in front of the federal Grand Jury in South Dakota against the AIM leadership. So I told them I couldn’t do that because it never happened.

I never, ever received orders of any kind like that from any of the AIM leadership. And so I wouldn’t do it; I wouldn’t cooperate with them.

And they left. Then they came back a year or so later and said, “Well, now there’s a possibility that she could have been kidnapped. There’s a possibility that she was raped. And she was murdered.”

And if I didn’t cooperate with them to put this information on the AIM leadership, then I would be facing all these charges myself.

AC Who was speaking to you at that time?

JG I can’t remember the particular agent’s name, but it was an agent out of Minnesota. Out of Minneapolis.

AC So, it was agent who came up from, it was a special agent?

JG Yea, of the FBI…He identified himself. And he came with the RCMP. (Royal Canadian Mounted Police).

AC Do you remember a timeline on that, John?

JG Not really. It was….I think it was probably around the month of February, because it was really cold….OK, by the records I think it was 1988..

AC So, at the time of the visit, and we’re going to get back to the visits again, because that’s a very important piece of information you’ve shared with us. But, I also think it’s important for those of us down here in the States who don’t know you, people overseas who have rallied to your defense, that we get to know you a little more. So, you were raising your kids at the time of this, your children. And that was your biggest commitment in life, is that right?

JG At that time, yea. I worked construction; I’m a construction worker and a pipe layer. I install water, sewer, and storm systems. I’d been doing that for years. Prior to that, my involvement with AIM was like, I was involved with the anti-uranium mining movement, peace movement, back in the 70’s, 80’s. I was very active around opposing the uranium mining developments in Saskatchewan, Canada. And doing a lot of work. I’ve always done, as you know, whatever I could, wherever I could for Leonard, and making Leonard’s story known.

AC Leonard Peltier?

JG Yes. And I’ve been doing that for years. I’ve toured, I’ve been across the country a few times, you know, on behalf of Leonard, and behalf of the anti-uranium mining efforts. I’ve toured Europe with this. I’ve always constantly at different times trying to do whatever I could to expose the crimes that have been committed against Leonard.

AC Alright, and so you were active in that, and had some children, and decided to kind of home-in and become a father to the kids?

JG Yes.

AC So you, while you were raising your children, you started receiving visits from the FBI and the United States?

JG That’s correct. Yes.

AC Alright. Now, your friend Matt Lien mentioned that he thought there were at least four visits over the last fifteen years.

JG That’s right. That’s right.

AC ….You mentioned the first visit which was offering you immunity and a new identity, is that correct?

JG Yea. The second visit I think, I’m sure it was the same agent that came up. And again the same deal was offered, and again I refused.

And that’s when they started talking about well the possibility she was kidnapped. The possibility she was raped. And Then they started telling me about this guy Robert Pictou Branscombe.

They said the he’d been, I guess relieved of, or resigned from the Army. And that he’d been in Vietnam, and he was a well-decorated soldier, and that he just recently, or at the time, realized or come to enlightenment that he was somehow related to Anna Mae. And that he was determined to find out how she was killed, or who killed her. And they warned me then that he was coming, and he was going to start opening up this case, you know and he was gong to, they warned me about this Branscombe guy that was going to come and he wasn’t going to let it go until he made a case.

So, OK, then the third visit was from a U.S. Marshall, Ecoffey, Robert Ecoffey.

AC Now, do you have a sense of time again?

JG Oh, this was maybe a year or two after the second visit.

AC And the second visit was?

JG Oh, must have been, again, late ‘80’s, ’89, ‘90.

AC OK, so now this third visit is a couple years later.

JG Maybe ’94, or something, Ecoffey came up. And he started telling me that, well he explained who he was. That he was BIA police at the time working on Pine Ridge. And that he had worked close, he was more or less considered a goon at the time. He worked close with the goons.

So I knew now he was a decorated U.S. Marshall, and he was saying he was the first Indian to ever carry that honor, or whatever. And that he had this dream while he was at the Pine Ridge police station about Anna Mae crying to him in the cell.

AC And did you believe him when he told you this story?

JG Oh, no, no. (laughs) No Not at all. How can this guy that was a goon, that was a bootlegger, and probably did a lot to beat and terrorize these people….So how could this guy have a spiritual revelation all of a sudden? And he’s having visions?

AC Right. So he wasn’t very believable to you.

JG No, not at all. And then once he explained who he was and his history, then I had nothing to say to him. I agreed to a meeting with him, though….on that third visit, well, he come up to me at my workplace.

AC He’d found you.

JG Ya. At first, I wouldn’t, I had nothing to talk to him about.

He wanted to meet at the police station, and I said no, I don’t go there.
He wanted to meet in a hotel room, and I didn’t,

so I said, “OK, I’ll talk to him out in the park where there’s lots of witnesses. “ So, we did that; we had a talk. And that’s where he told me they’d see to it that all these charges got laid on me because, again, I wouldn’t cooperate.

You know, they want to place me in these places that I hadn’t been, and put me around in getting orders from these people that at the time I hardly knew.

AC And so he was talking to you in the park, you agreed to talk to him in the park that day. Now, was that the same day or was that a couple days later?

JG It was That was that evening.

AC And did you have family keeping an eye out for you? Did you tell anybody about this?

JG Yes. I had relations and family that were around in the park and were watching everything….I think there might have been another Marshall with him, or somebody from the States with him. And then he had a whole, like an army of RCMP. That were escorting him around.

AC OK. And you were able to see them?

JG Oh, ya, they were right there, involved with interrogating and talking to me.

AC Did you see any visible recording equipment?

JG Not visible, but they did put a briefcase down in front of me, which I figured had a recorder in it. And the next morning, driving my daughter to school; I used to drive her to school quite early, and driving by the park I could see a whole team of RCMP police out there where I’d been sitting, and I think they were trying to scrape DNA or whatever off where I was sitting in the park that night.

AC And that visit, in the park there with Ecoffey, he was still trying to get you to admit things, or was he being more hostile at that point?

JG Well, he was saying there were all kinds of people starting to speak out and starting to talk about me, that I’d been here and I’d been there, you know, and my name keeps coming up and this is why they’re you know coming after me.

That’s what he said.

And he said they were going to keep coming and not going to let it go, and they intend to lay this on me one way or the other.

AC And was he speaking about Branscombe at that point, or was he talking about the Feds, the Federal government at that point? Was he saying the Federal government was going to lay this on you?

JG Yea, It was because he was representing the United States Marshalls, and he was in that capacity, so I took it as it was coming from the States.

AC Right. And did he offer you a deal?

JG Oh, the same one, you know. And again, I refused it.

AC Can you tell us one more time that same deal, third time from Robert Ecoffey, the deal he offered you?

JG Well, he wanted me to name places that I’d been. He wanted me to name the AIM leadership that supposedly gave orders. And they named ALL the AIM leadership. Not just a couple of them, but they named all of them….including John Trudell.

AC Including Dennis Banks??

JG Yea and Russell Means, the Bellecourts.
Right. And they wanted me to finger one or all of them, and I refused. And that’s when they said, “Well. You’re going to take all these charges yourself.”

All I could say is, “You guys are going to do whatever you’re going to do. There’s nothing I can do about it.” So I left it at that.

AC Alright, now you had a fourth visit. So you left it at that. They left you alone for how long would you say, before you had that last visit?

JG I couldn’t remember exactly. It was a year or two again.

AC OK, so fourth visit. What happens then?

JG More of the same, I guess. They wanted me to talk, and they came up to my house, and I wouldn’t talk to them. And I more or less just left them standing at the door. You know, I got tired of….and they’re consistently and persistently coming back at me and, you know, and coming in numbers, so to the neighborhood it looks like the whole troupe is moving in.
…They’re standing around out in front, you know?

AC So after that last visit again you said no, there’s no place they could go, did you ever think they would actually indict you?

JG No, no. I didn’t think it would ever get this far.

AC And why is that, John?

JG Well because there’s just no truth, no real to it, you know? I just couldn’t see how, you know?

AC There’s a video clip running on the Internet right now of an interview with you. It’s on www.danieltv.com/ and on that video clip you mention, and I have the quote here, that they asked you to identify her murderer, and they told you either you would cooperate, or they would ruin your life.

JG Yea. That’s more or less the words the FBI agent told me.

AC And did they say that to you?

JG He was looking at my house and my family, and he mentioned to the effect, “Oh, you’ve got a nice home here, and nice family, you know, good job and stuff, and we’ll wreck it for you.”

AC did that rattle you at all, John?

JG Well, yea, in a sense it did. Because this guy was directly threatening me. If I don’t cooperate with him and tell his story, then you know, yea. And I’ve been around, I was down at Oglala Pine Ridge. I know how serious these people are. So when they make threats, I know it’s not idle.

AC….And that last visit, was again, who was visiting you on that fourth visit?

JG Ecoffey again.

AC So that’s a lot to have gone through, and after that fourth visit, again I know it’s hard with time, but approximately, after that fourth visit when you refused to cooperate again, how long after that before the indictments came down in Denver last spring?

JG Well, it was what…. I can’t remember the exact date the last time they came up, but it must have been around ’96 or something.

AC So, there were a good several years, five or six years before you heard anything. So you had a respite there. Now you must have heard that they were naming you, and they were naming Arlo.

JG Yea, and I think it was ’96 that I became aware of everything that had been happening on the Internet. See, I’m not plugged into the Internet at all, and I didn’t know all this stuff had been carried on, on the Internet for probably years, by that point. And all this stuff that was going on, I had no clue it was happening, until around ’96 the I realized….I started seeing the web pages, and people started bringing it to my attention. And I realized, “Whoa, this is getting pretty serious.” And I had to deal with that, and, but still like you know I can’t go and testify against somebody that I don’t know ever happened.

AC OK, so that, perhaps, leads us to the sort of odd unfoldings in the last ten days. We’re at the end of March 2004, and in the last ten days or two weeks, there’s been a particular group who claim to be a group of indigenous women who have challenged your truth, and claim they have evidence against you.

They recently did release a supposed tape, where they recorded you and you more or less admit to the timeline and the scenario of Anna Mae’s death that was presented by Arlo Looking Cloud at his trial this past February. Do you have a comment about this tape?

Maybe we could start with if you even remember speaking to a journalist, and where this tape might have emerged in reality. Obviously your voice is on there somewhere. Where do you think this tape came from? Did someone interview you, and can you recall that situation?

JG Well, I’ve been interviewed lots of times over the last few years. And every time I’ve been interviewed, it’s been construed, or chopped, or I don’t know. All I can say to that is if they’ve got this tape where I’m saying all these things, and I know they don’t, but if they say they do, why isn’t it on the evidence table?

AC Have they released the tape to you and your team in Canada?

JG No. I read about it yesterday in the paper.

AC And they had contacted you last week and tried to get a comment about it?

JG Right. And there’s some mention of it in the extradition papers.

AC Now, there’s a reference to this tape in the extradition papers?

JG There’s a reference to some kind of tape in the extradition appeal here, that I said some things, or placed myself at places that Arlo had placed me at. That I’m supposedly admitting to all this stuff. No. If they’ve got this, then put it on the evidence table. Let’s bring it forward.

AC But according to one of your attorneys, Terry Liberte, the extradition process in Canada has now, supposedly decided not to let your attorneys or yourself view the evidence that the United States is holding. And that was originally going to be available. Is that right?

JG What they’re doing, they used Ecoffey’s name and the different agents’ names and everything that came up to get me arrested. But now for the extradition they take these agents out. They’re not being used as witnesses.

AC So they’ve changed the evidence presented originally?

JG,Yea and Ecoffey claims to be the one that opened the case back in the ‘90’s. And why isn’t he called? His trips up here to Canada should be on the evidence table.

AC So you’re not able to review all this evidence, right? Your attorneys and yourself, you can’t see any of this?

JG No.

AC So, this tape that we’re speaking of, that supposedly has some kind of confession, or places you in a timeline, is something neither you nor your attorneys have been able to listen to? And a particular media person contacted you saying he had heard that particular tape?

JG He won’t give me any source of where he got his tape, other than this organization here, this women’s group…,

AC Seems like their history is a little sketchy. Yes. And so the fact is you haven’t been able to view this tape now. Even in the article in The New York Times, an AP article, there is mention of you placing yourself Pine Ridge, with Arlo, with Annie Mae, with Theda. Can you speak a little to the last time you saw Annie Mae, and does this fit what they’re saying, what the tape says? Wait, before we go there, John, I know naming names is hard but for those of us in the media in the United States, do you have a sense of which journalist of all the one interviewed you might be the on who’s flaunting this tape around?

JG He was from South Dakota. He was a young guy, long hair, cowboy boots. Said he was from Rapid City, or worked around Rapid City, and I think he’s out of Europe somewhere. And I can’t remember his name. He said he wrote for a magazine called Stand. I think that’s the guy. But on the evidence thing there, where it talks about the tape, it’s signed by “CW”. And I asked, “What’s CW?” And they just was “Concerned Witness.” Don’t they have to produce a name? Can’t I face my accusers? Just a concerned witness. I said concerned witness, or something Walker?

AC Well, there is a journalist named Carson Walker. He is actually the person who wrote the New York Times article, and he is the person who they let listen t the tape. So, let’s go to the last,

JG Well, he’s saying I admitted to this stuff when the tape recorder was shut off.

AC So let’s go, John, to the last time you saw Annie Mae. Kind of tell us a little about that last time you spent time with her.

JG Last time when we drove from Denver to Pine Ridge, and you know that ride there going to Pine Ridge, and talking with her, gearing up. And then gettin to a safe house.

Well she went in to talk to people in the house, and she came back out, and she said she was all right there, and we went back to Denver. That was the last time I saw Anna Mae.

She was talking to me during that ride about her arrest in Oregon, and about Price, agent David Price, and this other agent that were interrogating her and hunting her at the time. And she was very scared about the possibility of running into Douglas Durham, who I’m sure she had connected to Juancita Eagle Deer’s death. And I think she might have even had information connecting him to her. And she was very scared that she would run into Durham, and he was going to do harm to her. And with Price she was very scared of Price because Price did threaten her. Told her she’d be dead within a year. And the fact that he had written in his books, his notebooks a detailed description of every part of her. Markings on her body…

AC When did he get those descriptions of her? Did she speak about how that interrogation happened?

JG When she was, I guess, arrested in Oregon. And transferred her back to South Dakota. And it was during that time that he made the threat, I guess. And took a detailed, like she told me it was a detailed description. Every mark on her body, even the labels of her clothing he marked in his notebook.

Full description of her jewelry, her medicine pouch, and all of this stuff. So he had a detailed description of all of this stuff, and she was very scared about that, and you know the fact that they were very capable. And there were a LOT of people being killed at that time. The tension at Pine Ridge was extreme. Violence was like every second day.

AC So there was foundation for her fear; it wasn’t she was just this paranoid person. This was happening all the time.

JG No, no, no. There was definitely, definite fear.

AC Now, how did you end up driving Anna Mae from Denver?

JG We knew each other, because we’re both from Canada. We were…. If I was around and she needed a hand with anything, she’d come ask me. I guess she heard I was in Denver, and asked….so I went over to see her. We talked. And that’s when we talked. I talked to her there, and that’s when she started telling me she had to get out of that house because there was just too much traffic around there. And she was underground at that time, hunted by the FBI. So she was pretty shook up, and pretty paranoid about so many people being around in and out and all that.

So she asked me if I would go to Pine Ridge with her. So I agreed to. That’s what I did. And I agreed that if, you know, by chance, we got pulled over or the Feds got turned on to us, that I’d be the decoy while she got away.

And you know that’s what I did.

AC And there were a couple of people with you… was Arlo looking Cloud in the car with you?

JG Well, Arlo was there. He knew Pine Ridge. He knew how to get around. I don’t think….Theda wasn’t there. We might have used her car, but she wasn’t there. She stayed at home.

AC So, you remember Arlo being there with you, and he rode back with you?

JG Yea. And then after we got back to Denver, well I tell you the truth I’ve never seen Arlo since. And I didn’t, well it was only the first or second time I met the guy, too. When we took the ride, was cause well all his relations down there said he knew Pine Ridge; knew he back roads and stuff.

AC Oh, okay. And so everybody at the safe house there, at Troy Lynn Yellow Wood’s house, they knew you were going up to Pine Ridge to get Anna Mae out of there? Did they know you were on a mission to get Annie Mae to a safer place?

JG I don’t know what they knew….It was time to get out of that place. There was too much traffic.

AC So she didn’t….there was no trouble at that end as far as Annie Mae being able to get out of the house?

JG No, not at all. That’s why I can’t understand these people, all these witnesses, where they get off saying she was tied up and stuff? There’s no way.

So, that’s what we did. Then we went to Pine Ridge. I don’t know, might have been two, maybe three different houses there, and she stayed at the last one. And we drove back to Denver.

AC So, now, you got up to Pine Ridge, and you went to a few different houses?

JG Yea, two or three. I can’t really remember. And I never went into any of the houses, so I don’t know who they were.

AC Alright, so let’s go to this place where you’re saying this is the last time you saw Annie Mae alive, yea?…. dropping her off at this house…., sometime before Christmas?

JG I guess so, yea.

JG So, sometime before Christmas, you’re saying?

JG You know, to be quite truthfully I couldn’t really remember. I hate to guess.

AC Okay, so there was a ride up there.
There was a bit of a time that went by before you heard about Anna Mae’s death? Did you wonder what happened to her? Did you question was she still alive? I mean did you ever try to look for her after you dropped her off? What happened with your friendship and your connection with her between that time and the time you found she had passed away?

JG Well, I knew she was underground. You know. She was on the run and she was being hunted by the Feds, where I didn’t try to follow her. It’s safer.

When I heard about Anna Mae, I guess, I don’t know how much time later it was; it was a while later, I guess. I think I might have been on Pine Ridge I think maybe when the first autopsy was done. And there was talk….I remember people talking that they had an unidentified body at the hospital. And some people from pine ridge, I think there was an elderly woman I think who tried to go view the body, and the FBI wouldn’t let her. And that’s when they, I guess buried her as Jane Doe.

AC Did you wonder if it was Anna Mae, John?

JG I didn’t really know. You know? I didn’ t know. It seemed like, it was just a common thing….One of the things that got me about it was a week later, or a week and a half later they found Hubert Horse. Again, shot.

And that’s when I started getting a little concerned that the FBI were living up to their word. That they were going to get everyone that was involved in or around the Oglala shootout. I just had that feeling, You know.

AC Did you ever have a sense that the leadership of the American Indian Movement, I mean we even have Russell Means alluding to this, well not alluding, he’s actually saying there was AIM leadership targeting her. And certainly I’ve heard that myself, that there were certain people in the American Indian Movement who felt that Anna Mae was an informant. Had you heard that kind of accusation against her in your travels?

JG Just, well, from her.

AC From her, herself? She knew?

JG Well, she knew who they were. Like this John Blue Legs, or whatever his name was. He was in camp, and she pointed him out one day, and said, “This guy’s an agent and he’s starting stories; he’s starting rumors.” She pointed him out right in camp to me. And then you know so I was leery about these people and I kept my distance from them.

AC So she turned you on to some of the people who started stories against her. So she knew this was going on. What camp was that?

JG It might have been at Sundance camp, and it could have been at Leonard Crow Dog’s.

AC And what were some of the things that you and Annie Mae did together? Talk if you would, if you like, about your relationship. Some of things you did with AIM, some of the situations you survived together. You were quoted on the danieltv.com interview as saying that Annie Mae was your “sister in more ways than people can know.” You want to talk a little about some of the things you shared, about some of the times you went through together?

JG Well, I first met Anna at the Red Schoolhouse, in Minneapolis, or St. Paul. And got to know herth ere. And there was a call, or a request for help, I guess from Pine Ridge or something. And a lot of people went down there. This was in ’75. After Wounded Knee.

So we all went down there, several people went down.We were around Pine Ridge through some of the trials, the Custer trials were happening. Sarah Bad Heart Bull was being sentenced. Lots of things were happening, like state violence against people. And we were there…I was witnessing all of this.

It was such a shock to me, to see all of that state violence against such poor people.

AC So she was educating you as to what was going on within the government and the movement.

JG Yea, you know, steering me around making sure I didn’t get in with the wrong bunch, or something you know.

AC And so you traveled with her from the Red Schoolhouse down to Pine Ridge. Did you guys keep traveling together?

JG Yea, we went down to Farmington, we were at the Farmington convention, then back up to Pine Ridge again.

AC So you were at Farmington when she was accused of being an informant. Did she talk about that?

JG No, she never….she was kind of pissed off that there was rumors. But, there were rumors going around about everybody, like I was an informant, too. (laughs) So we didn’t take it that serious.

AC I mean you weren’t an informant, but you were being called, you were being accused of being an informant.

JG I mean, ya, everybody was leery….and that was the kind of atmosphere that was happening.

AC So you didn’t witness any of this so-called… in the Arlo Looking Cloud trial Kamook Banks came out and said there were guns pulled on Annie Mae, and she was cornered. You did not witness any of that?

JG No, and I do not believe it for a minute. Not for a minute. Total bogus, because you know Leonard and Anna Mae were close, and that I witnessed. And I know that they were very dear friends. And Anna Mae was, you know, the last time I seen her, she not only wanted to be at Pine Ridge, but she wanted to reconnect with Leonard.

So there’s just no way that within that circle that anybody doubted her.

AC Now, there were people that questioned her being an informant.

JG I don’t know who would have questioned her, but maybe it did happen, but she never mentioned that to me.

AC you never witnessed it, and she never talked about it?

JG No, she mentioned though that this John Blue Legs, and pointed him out to me, had been in Farmington, too. Doing the same, you know.

AC Stirring things up.

JG Yea. And that’s who she was mad at, and others like him that she didn’t know about but that were out there. And that kind of stuff goes on when you’ve got gatherings of 300, 400, 500 people.

AC Do you know if this John Blue Legs was close with the old AIM leadership back then? Or did he have any say about decisions?

JG I’m not sure what his history is with AIM, or how he’d come to be he’d always seem to be around.

AC And was he close to some of those guys?

JG I wouldn’t know. I kept my distance from him.

AC Alright. So you traveled with Annie Mae from the Red Schoolhouse, you kind of hung out with her. Do have some favorite story from your connection with her that you would want to share with us? Something that helps us know her and her ways and how she was in those days?

JG Well, the only thing I could say, I guess, to try to help people realize that. Like Leonard or Dennis or myself never thought she was an informant, you know, we went back into Oglala together immediately after the shootout.

AC After the shootout, you and Anna Mae went into Oglala?

JG And Hubert Horse.

AC And Hubert Horse was with you?

JG And another brother by the name of Richard Star that was from Canada, Saskatchewan. A lot of people risked a lot in their personal safety and their freedom, as well as laid their lives on the line, to help get these people off the reservation.

Because there was a massive man hunt going down. And you just don’t go into situations like that and come out, and you know you’re an informant. She would have turned everybody in right there. You know what I’m saying?

AC Say that again for me.

JG You don’t go into situations like that…we didn’t expect to live out the day….there’s no way after going through those experiences that I’d ever doubt her.

AC you’re saying some of those top guys also knew how committed she was. Laying herself on the line like that.

JG Yea, and that’s like when she went to Pine Ridge, her thing was trying to reestablish connection with Leonard so she could get back. You know

That was, the last time I saw her that’s what she was talking about. So there’s no way Leonard threatened her or put a gun to her head, or anything like that.

AC Do you have any recall of any stories about Kamook Banks being upset with her?
JG No, she didn’t talk to me about things like that.

AC She didn’t talk any girl talk?

JG No, she didn’t talk about any boyfriends.

AC Do you have a favorite story about her? If this was a more just world and you could talk to her daughters….

JG Well, things like that story about us going back into Oglala. It wasn’t an easy thing to do but we did it. And to me that’s very memorable. We came very close to being wiped out, and I know that. Those experiences are bonding. When you go through these experiences with people, and your life is threatened, and jeopardized.

AC So you guys had that deep connection, surviving that together. So how did she find you in Denver, how did she know?

JG Somebody came over to where I was staying. It could have been Troy Lynn, could have been Theda.

AC And what did they say?

JG That she was here, and if I could, could I go over and talk to her and speak to her. Those guys were pretty hot after her.

AC So now when she was found murdered, executed brutally, did you have a theory in your heart? Did you have a sense in your heart what had happened to her?

JG No. Once they identified her, and I realized it was her, and right after I said Hubert Horse was found the same way, I just figured the Feds were living up to what they said.

AC So, you did have a sense…of what might have happened to her.

JG Yea, Well, when I heard Agent Price was involved, I just figured, Agent Price was the first on the scene when they found her, is what I was told, and I think he was just confirming his kill.

AC So that’s what you felt from the beginning?

JG That’s what I still feel.

AC And still carry that with you all these years later. And so, have you, over the years in your own way honored her? How would you say in your own way you’ve honored Anne Mae and your friendship, and what she did for the People?

JG Well, I’ve always kept in my heart the direction, the things that we’ve talked about in the movement. The things we wanted to see happen there. The organizing and everything that was going on needed to happen more in Indian country. These are the things ideas we shared and talked about, and how that could be, and how we needed to educate the non-native people to the struggles of our people.

And to try to make then understand, and it was important that we were able to do that, and to verbally relay our message and relay our struggle. And those kind of things we’re always working at and trying to improve.

And over the years, I’ve always connected her death to Leonard’s case, and the whole thing with the land transfer, the uranium grab, the water rip-off that went down at that time. It was all connected. I read somewhere that like 330,000 acres was signed away to the United States Government at the same time as the Oglala shootout that nobody really knew about.

And then, okay, when you start to consider that we’re talking about billions and billions of dollars in resources. You know. And that kind of money, you’re going to get corruption in the highest places in government, and in corporations.

And that’s what South Dakota’s going through. Ever since Custer, I think. They’ve been doing that to the Lakotas and Dakotas continuously.

AC This harassment, this land-grabbing, this genocide, really.

JG Really. And that’s what it is. And I’m looking here reading through these transcripts of Arlo’s trial, here, and man It’s just….kangaroo court is too easy a term. It’s typical I guess, South Dakota.

AC Another drunk Indian.

JG Another drunk Indian attitude, yea.

AC Speaking of that trial, and those transcripts, in your heart, how did you feel when you’re seeing some of the statements from people who might have been friends of yours, that you may or may not have expected to testify the way that they did, how are you feeling about that? What goes through your heart and mind?
JG Well, it hurts. You know. It hurts really deep. These people that are doing this, that are taking this stand, and this rumor’s been persistent I guess for years now. Why, WHY? couldn’t any one of these people have come and talked to me, or ask me about it? Over all these years, if they were hearing the rumours, why couldn’t they come talk to me?

AC So John Trudell never spoke with you?

JG Not a word, not a peep.

AC So no one never asked you if you were there at her murder?

JG None of the AIM leadership has ever talked to me about this, or anybody else for that matter. All the people who’ve written about this story, made documentaries about it.

AC Now the CBC interviewed you, right?

JG the Fifth Estate. Then they chopped it up. They interviewed me for three and a half hours, chopped it up and used one minute of my interview.

AC Right. So some of those people are old friends in that trial saying those things. What do you think has made them act this way, say these things?

JG I think the FBI did their job really well. Really Well. With their misinformation, and rumor mongering, and they just bought right into it. And took it hook, line and sinker. And now they all point the fingers, everybody’s pointing the finger at everybody, as I understand.

What’s that all about? They’re on each other. I don’t think you can get two of the AIM leadership in one room together for five minutes without probably doing each other in.

AC That’s divide and conquer. Old tactics.

JG Exactly. And they fell for it. And you know. So we’ll see, I don’t know. These people who want to cooperate with the FBI and make this thing farce carry on, is you know like to me in my mind, well they’re as bad as criminals. Criminals that are doing everything they can to keep Leonard incarcerated, and just incarcerated Arlo.

AC And have you spoken to Arlo since all of this happened.

JG No, I haven’t.

AC And how do you feel about his testimony? His defense was based on the fact that you pulled the trigger.

JG Well, if you listen to it all down there, everybody’s pointing the finger, putting the blame on me, because I’m the guy that’s not there to defend hisself. I must have been responsible for the whole reign of terror. And then, considering well I don’t know why Arlo… the whole thing is doctored.

He’s been coached all the way through. And what I hear about Arlo, he’s not very stable to start with.

AC Well, one would imagine if YOU were approached about this story and offered immunity, that the same thing happened with Arlo. I mean that’s how I feel about it. I know I’m not supposed to put my two cents in, but I do sometimes. So then the fact is that you feel that Arlo was approached with the same type of thing? You feel that most of the people that cooperated had the same kind of visits?

JG Probably. Probably And I believe that probably people like Trudell and that are coming up and testifying were probably threatened to be blackballed or blacklisted in LA. No more recording contracts. Or whatever. You know. They’ve got a lot of weight on these guys.

Russell Means is going for a pardon from Janklow. Can you believe that? I couldn’t. Where has this man’s mind gone to?

AC So, sometimes you feel alone in your strength? What keeps you going, John? What keeps you clear?

JG I believe in what I know to be right. What I know to be truth. That’s what keeps me strong. And as I believe in the truth, and that’s why I feel positive about this. And I want to make something positive out of all of this.

AC And how do you see that going? How do you see this next coming weeks? You’ve got an extradition hearing coming up, and after that?

JG I feel good. We went to court yesterday. We got another month, so April 30,is the next court date. That’s to appoint a judge, and to set a date for the actual extradition hearing to start. And we’ve got a team of four lawyers now, so I feel good about that. Extradition experts. We’re ready to fight the extradition; to oppose it any way we can…we’re still putting our legal team together.

AC So, what makes you positive. What keeps you going on this? What good do you imagine coming from this, John Graham?

JG What do I imagine good coming from this? You know If Anna Mae were alive today, if she were not locked up for the rest of her life like Leonard, she would be working dedicatedly 24/7 to free Leonard, and I know that. That’s way I believe. And all these people who are doing the finger-pointing and everything else, they talk about due process. Well, what about Leonard’s due process? If anything good can come out of this, then maybe the crimes against that man will be exposed, and maybe that man can be immediately and unconditionally freed. Because it is wrong what they’re doing to him.

AC And what about what they’re doing to you, John Graham?

JG Well Okay, I don’t like what they’re doing to me, and it’s pretty much torn my life apart and everything you know. But the forty days I spent in jail,there you know, all I could think about and what gave me strength to get through that was what Leonard had been going through for the last 27, 28 years. You know. And I have nothing to whine about. And yes this is a fight. Yes.

And we’ve been up against the state before; it’s not the first time. So things are not surprising me, the way they’re doing. That’s why I choose to remain positive about this, and I think somewhere we’re going to find a court that has some integrity. And that’s going to hear the case and hear the truth and hear all of the facts and not withhold any information, not with hold any evidence, not fabricate any evidence. And one of these days we’re going to find a court where indigenous activists could get a fair hearing.
And I am hoping that is here in Canada.

AC Do you have any final words to say to people in general, people who want either to support you, support your truth coming out.

JG Well, first of all, greetings to everybody. Warm greetings from my heart of happiness and health to everybody out there listening. And a very big thank you from my heart for all the supporters. And that is

This is going to be a fight. I understand that we’re in for a long fight, but the support is one of my main reasons why I’m so . positive. Because of the support I’ve been receiving since this all started happening. I never realized how big this thing mushroomed. And I’m so I’m really grateful for that. And I’d like people to know that. And log onto our web page; there’s information on how people can help. Write letters to our justice minister. To stop the extradtion. There is no fair trial in South Dakota. If the FBI can fabricate enough evidence to warrant a trial, then I would like that trial to be here in Canada.

EPILOGUE

The day after our studio interview was completed as I listened and began transcribing our conversation, I realized there were a few lingering questions I had of John Graham. Things which I needed to clarify. I contacted him via his support group and sent out a few more questions, and received, quite readily the following replies:

antoinette claypoole: Carson Walker, the journalist who wrote the piece recently published (March 2004)regarding a supposed tape in which you speak of Annie Mae's murder, Walker mentions he heard you saying, on a tape "Theda was driving the car when we left "kills" house" Do you remember ever saying that???

John Graham: What are they talking about? When are they talking about? I've never ever stated that I've been at "kill's" house. When I travelled with Anna Mae, I never went into the houses. That was Anna Mae's decision.

AC: How do you think Anna Mae was murdered??? Did you ever hear of her being alive after you left her at the Safe House???

JG: I could speculate - like everyone else but I think people should really be concentrating on looking at the role of the FBI and their goons - and the climate of violence and the killings that were going on at that particular time.

AC: Why do you feel all these people claim it is YOU who pulled the trigger.

JG: Because they have been duped by the disinformation campaign ... For every person who believes I did it, I bet there are a thousand who believe the FBI did it, but because the FBI and the State - all they ever have to do is deny and nobody ever questions them and that's wrong. Now, THAT's witholding evidence.

&*&*&*&*&*
about antoinette nora claypoole:
i am a freelance writer who recently covered the trial of Arlo Looking Cloud for Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los Angeles. during early december i will also cover the Graham extradition hearings for Pacifica, KFPK. my first book Who Would Unbraid Her Hair: the legend of Annie Mae was a tribute to the life and times of Anna Mae. more rants, click here....

by antoinette nora claypoole
list of writings, click here

an interview with John Graham
click here
about the murder
of Anna Mae AquashAnna Mae Pictou married Nogeeshik Aquash at Wounded Knee Siege, 1973

CLICK HERE
to read John Graham Interview
in
Heyoka Magazine

Graham extradited to the U.S. 12.6.07

click here
for antoinette claypoole BLOG
re: John Graham

A man born and raised in Haine's Junction, Yukon Territory, a father and Citizen of the Champagne and Aishihik First Nation in what colonizers call Canada, this Southern Tutchone man is under house arrest. Fighting court extradition to the United States. In Vancouver, British Columbia, John Graham, walks each day to check in with officials, working to make sense of another time and place come to haunt him. Friends betraying him, some in Indian Country demanding yet another lynching.

On December 6, 2004, John Graham, his family, friends and attorneys will fight the United States. On that date, in Vancouver, British Columbia John Graham is asking the Canadian government to reconsider his extradition to the United States. The hearing is expected to be at least one week long, with defense trying to prove that Graham and the charges against him do not warrant an extradtion.

Historically the United States DOES get what it wants, yet Graham and his supporters believe that Canadian courts will consider that there is just not enough evidence to send Graham south. With the upcoming hearing about to begin, I decided to finally release a copy of the interview I did with John Graham this past spring. It is offered at this time with the belief that investigating the U.S. and it's illegal activities against First Nations is essential.

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What about his role as murderer of Anna Mae? I ask him this. What about a tape some claim indicts him heavily?? What does the First Nations man, John Graham, have to say about all this??? I asked him these questions over and over.

In the interview which follows you can read for yourself his responses. But what strikes deep is one thing. According to Graham the U.S. government had plans for HIM as far back as 1988. They threatened to “ruin his life”. Over the past 17 years there were visits by the FBI into Graham’s life in the Yukon. These visits are documented through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, who first escorted the FBI to Graham’s home back in the late 1980’s. Offering him immunity to a crime he claims he “did not do,” the FBI were demanding Graham name names of people who killed Annie Mae. In exchange the FBI would give him a “new life.”

So. Where ARE the truths which must be heard in all of this????

Maybe like the haunting BIA official Robert Ecoffey supposedly encountered so many years ago, maybe the voices of the silenced are whispering into the psyches of even the most unlikely. So. I dream this chance for people to hear other sides of stories…I imagine in my long nights of breathing “who, who?” like some kind of goddamn owl in the low riding nightmare of this…I imagine not death. Rather. A place where people wisdomseek in the darkness. Sense for themselves what the quest for truth really demands.

Still. Disturbed. By the clamberings of lie detector techno mania and potentially altered “tape recordings,” I sought to find the Indian/First Nations man being dragged into the square, a knotted noose awaiting his neck. In my heart I believe if there is a truth to be found, all sides must be heard. A place for a fair trial must be manifest. And many agree that the racist state of South Dakota may not be the best place for that to happen. Maybe John Graham deserves to be tried by his own people.

So. I took a desire for truth. And my wondering of how a government threatening to kill Anna Mae can be trusted to find her murderer. I took these things three days after what would have been Anna Mae’s 59th birthday to an interview of John Graham. From a small radio studio in North Hollywood. He in the North Country. Far from American dreamweaver machines. Still. Both places bound by a wind. Which pushed me to ask the hard questions. And insists a listen to some painful remarks which provoke yet more and more questions. Who murdered Anna Mae….why and when ….the haunting brutal mystery is far from over.

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RECKONING WINDS OF THE YUKON:
an interview with John Graham

by antoinette nora claypoole

FULL INTERVIEW, March 30-31 2004

Antoinette Claypoole: Carson Walker, the journalist who wrote the piece recently published (March 2004)regarding a supposed tape in which you speak of Annie Mae's murder, Walker mentions he heard you saying, on a tape "Theda was driving the car when we left "kills" house" Do you remember ever saying that???

John Graham: What are they talking about? When are they talking about? I've never ever stated that I've been at "kill's" house. When I travelled with Anna Mae, I never went into the houses. That was Anna Mae's decision.

AC: How do you think Anna Mae was murdered??? Did you ever hear of her being alive after you left her at the Safe House???

JG: I could speculate - like everyone else but I think people should really be concentrating on looking at the role of the FBI and their goons - and the climate of violence and the killings that were going on at that particular time. AC: Why do you feel all these people claim it is YOU who pulled the trigge JG: Because they have been duped by the disinformation campaign ... For every person who believes I did it, I bet there are a thousand who believe the FBI did it, but because the FBI and the State - all they ever have to do is deny and nobody ever questions them and that's wrong. Now, THAT's witholding evidence.

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antoinette claypoole Alright, so what I want to start with, John Graham, is… tell us a little bit about your life before this indictment happened. What you have been doing over the last several years for First Nations people. The kinds of activism and activities that you were working on before this indictment was handed to you by the United States government.

John Graham I’ve been working with the movement at different levels for many years, since the early 70s. But when these indictments all came down, well…. I haven’t been involved with the movement for a few years; I’ve been living up in the Yukon raising my children. My children became my movement. I just dropped out of everything and concentrated on raising my children. And that’s what I was doing when this all first came up in the mid-80s or sometime about there.

The FBI showed up at my home in the Yukon, and asked me all kinds of questions about Anna Mae and the death. They were trying to say I was there, or I knew about it, or I was aware of it. And I had to tell them I wasn’t aware, I wasn’t around there and I wasn’t involved in her killing at all. And they wanted me to name leadership that would have given the order to that effect, to kill Anna Mae. And they were trying to tell me they would put me in the witness protection program, they would change my identity, they would relocate me if I would go to testify in front of the federal Grand Jury in South Dakota against the AIM leadership. So I told them I couldn’t do that because it never happened.

I never, ever received orders of any kind like that from any of the AIM leadership. And so I wouldn’t do it; I wouldn’t cooperate with them.

And they left. Then they came back a year or so later and said, “Well, now there’s a possibility that she could have been kidnapped. There’s a possibility that she was raped. And she was murdered.”

And if I didn’t cooperate with them to put this information on the AIM leadership, then I would be facing all these charges myself.

AC Who was speaking to you at that time?

JG I can’t remember the particular agent’s name, but it was an agent out of Minnesota. Out of Minneapolis.

AC So, it was agent who came up from, it was a special agent?

JG Yea, of the FBI…He identified himself. And he came with the RCMP. (Royal Canadian Mounted Police).

AC Do you remember a timeline on that, John?

JG Not really. It was….I think it was probably around the month of February, because it was really cold….OK, by the records I think it was 1988..
AC So, at the time of the visit, and we’re going to get back to the visits again, because that’s a very important piece of information you’ve shared with us. But, I also think it’s important for those of us down here in the States who don’t know you, people overseas who have rallied to your defense, that we get to know you a little more. So, you were raising your kids at the time of this, your children. And that was your biggest commitment in life, is that right?

JG At that time, yea. I worked construction; I’m a construction worker and a pipe layer. I install water, sewer, and storm systems. I’d been doing that for years. Prior to that, my involvement with AIM was like, I was involved with the anti-uranium mining movement, peace movement, back in the 70’s, 80’s. I was very active around opposing the uranium mining developments in Saskatchewan, Canada. And doing a lot of work. I’ve always done, as you know, whatever I could, wherever I could for Leonard, and making Leonard’s story known.

AC Leonard Peltier?

JG Yes. And I’ve been doing that for years. I’ve toured, I’ve been across the country a few times, you know, on behalf of Leonard, and behalf of the anti-uranium mining efforts. I’ve toured Europe with this. I’ve always constantly at different times trying to do whatever I could to expose the crimes that have been committed against Leonard.

AC Alright, and so you were active in that, and had some children, and decided to kind of home-in and become a father to the kids?

JG Yes.

AC So you, while you were raising your children, you started receiving visits from the FBI and the United States?

JG That’s correct. Yes.

AC Alright. Now, your friend Matt Lien mentioned that he thought there were at least four visits over the last fifteen years.

JG That’s right. That’s right.

AC ….You mentioned the first visit which was offering you immunity and a new identity, is that correct?

JG Yea. The second visit I think, I’m sure it was the same agent that came up. And again the same deal was offered, and again I refused.

And that’s when they started talking about well the possibility she was kidnapped. The possibility she was raped. And Then they started telling me about this guy Robert Pictou Branscombe.

They said the he’d been, I guess relieved of, or resigned from the Army. And that he’d been in Vietnam, and he was a well-decorated soldier, and that he just recently, or at the time, realized or come to enlightenment that he was somehow related to Anna Mae. And that he was determined to find out how she was killed, or who killed her. And they warned me then that he was coming, and he was going to start opening up this case, you know and he was gong to, they warned me about this Branscombe guy that was going to come and he wasn’t going to let it go until he made a case.

So, OK, then the third visit was from a U.S. Marshall, Ecoffey, Robert Ecoffey.

AC Now, do you have a sense of time again?

JG Oh, this was maybe a year or two after the second visit.

AC And the second visit was?

JG Oh, must have been, again, late ‘80’s, ’89, ‘90.

AC OK, so now this third visit is a couple years later.

JG Maybe ’94, or something, Ecoffey came up. And he started telling me that, well he explained who he was. That he was BIA police at the time working on Pine Ridge. And that he had worked close, he was more or less considered a goon at the time. He worked close with the goons.

So I knew now he was a decorated U.S. Marshall, and he was saying he was the first Indian to ever carry that honor, or whatever. And that he had this dream while he was at the Pine Ridge police station about Anna Mae crying to him in the cell.

AC And did you believe him when he told you this story?

JG Oh, no, no. (laughs) No Not at all. How can this guy that was a goon, that was a bootlegger, and probably did a lot to beat and terrorize these people….So how could this guy have a spiritual revelation all of a sudden? And he’s having visions?

AC Right. So he wasn’t very believable to you.

JG No, not at all. And then once he explained who he was and his history, then I had nothing to say to him. I agreed to a meeting with him, though….on that third visit, well, he come up to me at my workplace.

AC He’d found you.

JG Ya. At first, I wouldn’t, I had nothing to talk to him about.

He wanted to meet at the police station, and I said no, I don’t go there.
He wanted to meet in a hotel room, and I didn’t,

so I said, “OK, I’ll talk to him out in the park where there’s lots of witnesses. “ So, we did that; we had a talk. And that’s where he told me they’d see to it that all these charges got laid on me because, again, I wouldn’t cooperate.

You know, they want to place me in these places that I hadn’t been, and put me around in getting orders from these people that at the time I hardly knew.

AC And so he was talking to you in the park, you agreed to talk to him in the park that day. Now, was that the same day or was that a couple days later?

JG It was That was that evening.

AC And did you have family keeping an eye out for you? Did you tell anybody about this?

JG Yes. I had relations and family that were around in the park and were watching everything….I think there might have been another Marshall with him, or somebody from the States with him. And then he had a whole, like an army of RCMP. That were escorting him around.

AC OK. And you were able to see them?

JG Oh, ya, they were right there, involved with interrogating and talking to me.

AC Did you see any visible recording equipment?

JG Not visible, but they did put a briefcase down in front of me, which I figured had a recorder in it. And the next morning, driving my daughter to school; I used to drive her to school quite early, and driving by the park I could see a whole team of RCMP police out there where I’d been sitting, and I think they were trying to scrape DNA or whatever off where I was sitting in the park that night.

AC And that visit, in the park there with Ecoffey, he was still trying to get you to admit things, or was he being more hostile at that point?

JG Well, he was saying there were all kinds of people starting to speak out and starting to talk about me, that I’d been here and I’d been there, you know, and my name keeps coming up and this is why they’re you know coming after me.

That’s what he said.

And he said they were going to keep coming and not going to let it go, and they intend to lay this on me one way or the other.

AC And was he speaking about Branscombe at that point, or was he talking about the Feds, the Federal government at that point? Was he saying the Federal government was going to lay this on you?

JG Yea, It was because he was representing the United States Marshalls, and he was in that capacity, so I took it as it was coming from the States.

AC Right. And did he offer you a deal?

JG Oh, the same one, you know. And again, I refused it.

AC Can you tell us one more time that same deal, third time from Robert Ecoffey, the deal he offered you?

JG Well, he wanted me to name places that I’d been. He wanted me to name the AIM leadership that supposedly gave orders. And they named ALL the AIM leadership. Not just a couple of them, but they named all of them….including John Trudell.
AC Including Dennis Banks??
JG Yea and Russell Means, the Bellecourts.
Right. And they wanted me to finger one or all of them, and I refused. And that’s when they said, “Well. You’re going to take all these charges yourself.”

All I could say is, “You guys are going to do whatever you’re going to do. There’s nothing I can do about it.” So I left it at that.

AC Alright, now you had a fourth visit. So you left it at that. They left you alone for how long would you say, before you had that last visit?

JG I couldn’t remember exactly. It was a year or two again.

AC OK, so fourth visit. What happens then?

JG More of the same, I guess. They wanted me to talk, and they came up to my house, and I wouldn’t talk to them. And I more or less just left them standing at the door. You know, I got tired of….and they’re consistently and persistently coming back at me and, you know, and coming in numbers, so to the neighborhood it looks like the whole troupe is moving in.
…They’re standing around out in front, you know?

AC So after that last visit again you said no, there’s no place they could go, did you ever think they would actually indict you?

JG No, no. I didn’t think it would ever get this far.

AC And why is that, John?

JG Well because there’s just no truth, no real to it, you know?

I just couldn’t see how, you know?

AC There’s a video clip running on the Internet right now of an interview with you. It’s on www.danieltv.com/ and on that video clip you mention, and I have the quote here, that they asked you to identify her murderer, and they told you either you would cooperate, or they would ruin your life.

JG Yea. That’s more or less the words the FBI agent told me.

AC And did they say that to you?

JG He was looking at my house and my family, and he mentioned to the effect, “Oh, you’ve got a nice home here, and nice family, you know, good job and stuff, and we’ll wreck it for you.”

AC did that rattle you at all, John?

JG Well, yea, in a sense it did. Because this guy was directly threatening me. If I don’t cooperate with him and tell his story, then you know, yea. And I’ve been around, I was down at Oglala Pine Ridge. I know how serious these people are. So when they make threats, I know it’s not idle.

AC….And that last visit, was again, who was visiting you on that fourth visit?

JG Ecoffey again.

AC So that’s a lot to have gone through, and after that fourth visit, again I know it’s hard with time, but approximately, after that fourth visit when you refused to cooperate again, how long after that before the indictments came down in Denver last spring?

JG Well, it was what…. I can’t remember the exact date the last time they came up, but it must have been around ’96 or something.

AC So, there were a good several years, five or six years before you heard anything. So you had a respite there. Now you must have heard that they were naming you, and they were naming Arlo.

JG Yea, and I think it was ’96 that I became aware of everything that had been happening on the Internet. See, I’m not plugged into the Internet at all, and I didn’t know all this stuff had been carried on, on the Internet for probably years, by that point. And all this stuff that was going on, I had no clue it was happening, until around ’96 the I realized….I started seeing the web pages, and people started bringing it to my attention. And I realized, “Whoa, this is getting pretty serious.” And I had to deal with that, and, but still like you know I can’t go and testify against somebody that I don’t know ever happened.

AC OK, so that, perhaps, leads us to the sort of odd unfoldings in the last ten days. We’re at the end of March 2004, and in the last ten days or two weeks, there’s been a particular group who claim to be a group of indigenous women who have challenged your truth, and claim they have evidence against you.

They recently did release a supposed tape, where they recorded you and you more or less admit to the timeline and the scenario of Anna Mae’s death that was presented by Arlo Looking Cloud at his trial this past February. Do you have a comment about this tape?

Maybe we could start with if you even remember speaking to a journalist, and where this tape might have emerged in reality. Obviously your voice is on there somewhere. Where do you think this tape came from? Did someone interview you, and can you recall that situation?

JG Well, I’ve been interviewed lots of times over the last few years. And every time I’ve been interviewed, it’s been construed, or chopped, or I don’t know. All I can say to that is if they’ve got this tape where I’m saying all these things, and I know they don’t, but if they say they do, why isn’t it on the evidence table?

AC Have they released the tape to you and your team in Canada?

JG No. I read about it yesterday in the paper.

AC And they had contacted you last week and tried to get a comment about it?

JG Right. And there’s some mention of it in the extradition papers.

AC Now, there’s a reference to this tape in the extradition papers?

JG There’s a reference to some kind of tape in the extradition appeal here, that I said some things, or placed myself at places that Arlo had placed me at. That I’m supposedly admitting to all this stuff. No. If they’ve got this, then put it on the evidence table. Let’s bring it forward.

AC But according to one of your attorneys, Terry Liberte, the extradition process in Canada has now, supposedly decided not to let your attorneys or yourself view the evidence that the United States is holding. And that was originally going to be available. Is that right?

JG What they’re doing, they used Ecoffey’s name and the different agents’ names and everything that came up to get me arrested. But now for the extradition they take these agents out. They’re not being used as witnesses.

AC So they’ve changed the evidence presented originally?

JG,Yea and Ecoffey claims to be the one that opened the case back in the ‘90’s. And why isn’t he called? His trips up here to Canada should be on the evidence table.

AC So you’re not able to review all this evidence, right? Your attorneys and yourself, you can’t see any of this?

JG No.

AC So, this tape that we’re speaking of, that supposedly has some kind of confession, or places you in a timeline, is something neither you nor your attorneys have been able to listen to? And a particular media person contacted you saying he had heard that particular tape?

JG He won’t give me any source of where he got his tape, other than this organization here, this women’s group…,

AC Seems like their history is a little sketchy. Yes. And so the fact is you haven’t been able to view this tape now. Even in the article in The New York Times, an AP article, there is mention of you placing yourself Pine Ridge, with Arlo, with Annie Mae, with Theda. Can you speak a little to the last time you saw Annie Mae, and does this fit what they’re saying, what the tape says? Wait, before we go there, John, I know naming names is hard but for those of us in the media in the United States, do you have a sense of which journalist of all the one interviewed you might be the on who’s flaunting this tape around?

JG He was from South Dakota. He was a young guy, long hair, cowboy boots. Said he was from Rapid City, or worked around Rapid City, and I think he’s out of Europe somewhere. And I can’t remember his name. He said he wrote for a magazine called Stand. I think that’s the guy. But on the evidence thing there, where it talks about the tape, it’s signed by “CW”. And I asked, “What’s CW?” And they just was “Concerned Witness.” Don’t they have to produce a name? Can’t I face my accusers? Just a concerned witness. I said concerned witness, or something Walker?

AC Well, there is a journalist named Carson Walker. He is actually the person who wrote the New York Times article, and he is the person who they let listen t the tape. So, let’s go to the last,

JG Well, he’s saying I admitted to this stuff when the tape recorder was shut off.

AC So let’s go, John, to the last time you saw Annie Mae. Kind of tell us a little about that last time you spent time with her.

JG Last time when we drove from Denver to Pine Ridge, and you know that ride there going to Pine Ridge, and talking with her, gearing up. And then gettin to a safe house.

Well she went in to talk to people in the house, and she came back out, and she said she was all right there, and we went back to Denver. That was the last time I saw Anna Mae.

She was talking to me during that ride about her arrest in Oregon, and about Price, agent David Price, and this other agent that were interrogating her and hunting her at the time. And she was very scared about the possibility of running into Douglas Durham, who I’m sure she had connected to Juancita Eagle Deer’s death. And I think she might have even had information connecting him to her. And she was very scared that she would run into Durham, and he was going to do harm to her. And with Price she was very scared of Price because Price did threaten her. Told her she’d be dead within a year. And the fact that he had written in his books, his notebooks a detailed description of every part of her. Markings on her body…

AC When did he get those descriptions of her? Did she speak about how that interrogation happened?

JG When she was, I guess, arrested in Oregon. And transferred her back to South Dakota. And it was during that time that he made the threat, I guess. And took a detailed, like she told me it was a detailed description. Every mark on her body, even the labels of her clothing he marked in his notebook.

Full description of her jewelry, her medicine pouch, and all of this stuff. So he had a detailed description of all of this stuff, and she was very scared about that, and you know the fact that they were very capable. And there were a LOT of people being killed at that time. The tension at Pine Ridge was extreme. Violence was like every second day.

AC So there was foundation for her fear; it wasn’t she was just this paranoid person. This was happening all the time.

JG No, no, no. There was definitely, definite fear.

AC Now, how did you end up driving Anna Mae from Denver?

JG We knew each other, because we’re both from Canada. We were…. If I was around and she needed a hand with anything, she’d come ask me. I guess she heard I was in Denver, and asked….so I went over to see her. We talked. And that’s when we talked. I talked to her there, and that’s when she started telling me she had to get out of that house because there was just too much traffic around there. And she was underground at that time, hunted by the FBI. So she was pretty shook up, and pretty paranoid about so many people being around in and out and all that.

So she asked me if I would go to Pine Ridge with her. So I agreed to. That’s what I did. And I agreed that if, you know, by chance, we got pulled over or the Feds got turned on to us, that I’d be the decoy while she got away.

And you know that’s what I did.

AC And there were a couple of people with you… was Arlo looking Cloud in the car with you?

JG Well, Arlo was there. He knew Pine Ridge. He knew how to get around. I don’t think….Theda wasn’t there. We might have used her car, but she wasn’t there. She stayed at home.

AC So, you remember Arlo being there with you, and he rode back with you?

JG Yea. And then after we got back to Denver, well I tell you the truth I’ve never seen Arlo since. And I didn’t, well it was only the first or second time I met the guy, too. When we took the ride, was cause well all his relations down there said he knew Pine Ridge; knew he back roads and stuff.

AC Oh, okay. And so everybody at the safe house there, at Troy Lynn Yellow Wood’s house, they knew you were going up to Pine Ridge to get Anna Mae out of there? Did they know you were on a mission to get Annie Mae to a safer place?

JG I don’t know what they knew….It was time to get out of that place. There was too much traffic.

AC So she didn’t….there was no trouble at that end as far as Annie Mae being able to get out of the house?

JG No, not at all. That’s why I can’t understand these people, all these witnesses, where they get off saying she was tied up and stuff? There’s no way.

So, that’s what we did. Then we went to Pine Ridge. I don’t know, might have been two, maybe three different houses there, and she stayed at the last one. And we drove back to Denver.

AC So, now, you got up to Pine Ridge, and you went to a few different houses?

JG Yea, two or three. I can’t really remember. And I never went into any of the houses, so I don’t know who they were.

AC Alright, so let’s go to this place where you’re saying this is the last time you saw Annie Mae alive, yea?…. dropping her off at this house…., sometime before Christmas?

JG I guess so, yea.

JG So, sometime before Christmas, you’re saying?

JG You know, to be quite truthfully I couldn’t really remember. I hate to guess.

AC Okay, so there was a ride up there.
There was a bit of a time that went by before you heard about Anna Mae’s death? Did you wonder what happened to her? Did you question was she still alive? I mean did you ever try to look for her after you dropped her off? What happened with your friendship and your connection with her between that time and the time you found she had passed away?

JG Well, I knew she was underground. You know. She was on the run and she was being hunted by the Feds, where I didn’t try to follow her. It’s safer.

When I heard about Anna Mae, I guess, I don’t know how much time later it was; it was a while later, I guess. I think I might have been on Pine Ridge I think maybe when the first autopsy was done. And there was talk….I remember people talking that they had an unidentified body at the hospital. And some people from pine ridge, I think there was an elderly woman I think who tried to go view the body, and the FBI wouldn’t let her. And that’s when they, I guess buried her as Jane Doe.

AC Did you wonder if it was Anna Mae, John?

JG I didn’t really know. You know? I didn’ t know. It seemed like, it was just a common thing….One of the things that got me about it was a week later, or a week and a half later they found Hubert Horse. Again, shot.

And that’s when I started getting a little concerned that the FBI were living up to their word. That they were going to get everyone that was involved in or around the Oglala shootout. I just had that feeling, You know.

AC Did you ever have a sense that the leadership of the American Indian Movement, I mean we even have Russell Means alluding to this, well not alluding, he’s actually saying there was AIM leadership targeting her. And certainly I’ve heard that myself, that there were certain people in the American Indian Movement who felt that Anna Mae was an informant. Had you heard that kind of accusation against her in your travels?

JG Just, well, from her.

AC From her, herself? She knew?

JG Well, she knew who they were. Like this John Blue Legs, or whatever his name was. He was in camp, and she pointed him out one day, and said, “This guy’s an agent and he’s starting stories; he’s starting rumors.” She pointed him out right in camp to me. And then you know so I was leery about these people and I kept my distance from them.

AC So she turned you on to some of the people who started stories against her. So she knew this was going on. What camp was that?

JG It might have been at Sundance camp, and it could have been at Leonard Crow Dog’s.

AC And what were some of the things that you and Annie Mae did together? Talk if you would, if you like, about your relationship. Some of things you did with AIM, some of the situations you survived together. You were quoted on the danieltv.com interview as saying that Annie Mae was your “sister in more ways than people can know.” You want to talk a little about some of the things you shared, about some of the times you went through together?

JG Well, I first met Anna at the Red Schoolhouse, in Minneapolis, or St. Paul. And got to know herth ere. And there was a call, or a request for help, I guess from Pine Ridge or something. And a lot of people went down there. This was in ’75. After Wounded Knee.

So we all went down there, several people went down.We were around Pine Ridge through some of the trials, the Custer trials were happening. Sarah Bad Heart Bull was being sentenced. Lots of things were happening, like state violence against people. And we were there…I was witnessing all of this.

It was such a shock to me, to see all of that state violence against such poor people.

AC So she was educating you as to what was going on within the government and the movement.

JG Yea, you know, steering me around making sure I didn’t get in with the wrong bunch, or something you know.

AC And so you traveled with her from the Red Schoolhouse down to Pine Ridge. Did you guys keep traveling together?

JG Yea, we went down to Farmington, we were at the Farmington convention, then back up to Pine Ridge again.

AC So you were at Farmington when she was accused of being an informant. Did she talk about that?

JG No, she never….she was kind of pissed off that there was rumors. But, there were rumors going around about everybody, like I was an informant, too. (laughs) So we didn’t take it that serious.

AC I mean you weren’t an informant, but you were being called, you were being accused of being an informant.

JG I mean, ya, everybody was leery….and that was the kind of atmosphere that was happening.

AC So you didn’t witness any of this so-called… in the Arlo Looking Cloud trial Kamook Banks came out and said there were guns pulled on Annie Mae, and she was cornered. You did not witness any of that?

JG No, and I do not believe it for a minute. Not for a minute. Total bogus, because you know Leonard and Anna Mae were close, and that I witnessed. And I know that they were very dear friends. And Anna Mae was, you know, the last time I seen her, she not only wanted to be at Pine Ridge, but she wanted to reconnect with Leonard.

So there’s just no way that within that circle that anybody doubted her.

AC Now, there were people that questioned her being an informant.

JG I don’t know who would have questioned her, but maybe it did happen, but she never mentioned that to me.

AC you never witnessed it, and she never talked about it?

JG No, she mentioned though that this John Blue Legs, and pointed him out to me, had been in Farmington, too. Doing the same, you know.

AC Stirring things up.

JG Yea. And that’s who she was mad at, and others like him that she didn’t know about but that were out there. And that kind of stuff goes on when you’ve got gatherings of 300, 400, 500 people.

AC Do you know if this John Blue Legs was close with the old AIM leadership back then? Or did he have any say about decisions?

JG I’m not sure what his history is with AIM, or how he’d come to be he’d always seem to be around.

AC And was he close to some of those guys?

JG I wouldn’t know. I kept my distance from him.

AC Alright. So you traveled with Annie Mae from the Red Schoolhouse, you kind of hung out with her. Do have some favorite story from your connection with her that you would want to share with us? Something that helps us know her and her ways and how she was in those days?

JG Well, the only thing I could say, I guess, to try to help people realize that. Like Leonard or Dennis or myself never thought she was an informant, you know, we went back into Oglala together immediately after the shootout.

AC After the shootout, you and Anna Mae went into Oglala?

JG And Hubert Horse.

AC And Hubert Horse was with you?

JG And another brother by the name of Richard Star that was from Canada, Saskatchewan. A lot of people risked a lot in their personal safety and their freedom, as well as laid their lives on the line, to help get these people off the reservation.

Because there was a massive man hunt going down. And you just don’t go into situations like that and come out, and you know you’re an informant. She would have turned everybody in right there. You know what I’m saying?

AC Say that again for me.

JG You don’t go into situations like that…we didn’t expect to live out the day….there’s no way after going through those experiences that I’d ever doubt her.

AC you’re saying some of those top guys also knew how committed she was. Laying herself on the line like that.

JG Yea, and that’s like when she went to Pine Ridge, her thing was trying to reestablish connection with Leonard so she could get back. You know

That was, the last time I saw her that’s what she was talking about. So there’s no way Leonard threatened her or put a gun to her head, or anything like that.

AC Do you have any recall of any stories about Kamook Banks being upset with her?
JG No, she didn’t talk to me about things like that.

AC She didn’t talk any girl talk?

JG No, she didn’t talk about any boyfriends.

AC Do you have a favorite story about her? If this was a more just world and you could talk to her daughters….

JG Well, things like that story about us going back into Oglala. It wasn’t an easy thing to do but we did it. And to me that’s very memorable. We came very close to being wiped out, and I know that. Those experiences are bonding. When you go through these experiences with people, and your life is threatened, and jeopardized.

AC So you guys had that deep connection, surviving that together. So how did she find you in Denver, how did she know?

JG Somebody came over to where I was staying. It could have been Troy Lynn, could have been Theda.

AC And what did they say?

JG That she was here, and if I could, could I go over and talk to her and speak to her. Those guys were pretty hot after her.

AC So now when she was found murdered, executed brutally, did you have a theory in your heart? Did you have a sense in your heart what had happened to her?

JG No. Once they identified her, and I realized it was her, and right after I said Hubert Horse was found the same way, I just figured the Feds were living up to what they said.

AC So, you did have a sense…of what might have happened to her.

JG Yea, Well, when I heard Agent Price was involved, I just figured, Agent Price was the first on the scene when they found her, is what I was told, and I think he was just confirming his kill.

AC So that’s what you felt from the beginning?

JG That’s what I still feel.

AC And still carry that with you all these years later. And so, have you, over the years in your own way honored her? How would you say in your own way you’ve honored Anne Mae and your friendship, and what she did for the People?

JG Well, I’ve always kept in my heart the direction, the things that we’ve talked about in the movement. The things we wanted to see happen there. The organizing and everything that was going on needed to happen more in Indian country. These are the things ideas we shared and talked about, and how that could be, and how we needed to educate the non-native people to the struggles of our people.

And to try to make then understand, and it was important that we were able to do that, and to verbally relay our message and relay our struggle. And those kind of things we’re always working at and trying to improve.

And over the years, I’ve always connected her death to Leonard’s case, and the whole thing with the land transfer, the uranium grab, the water rip-off that went down at that time. It was all connected. I read somewhere that like 330,000 acres was signed away to the United States Government at the same time as the Oglala shootout that nobody really knew about.

And then, okay, when you start to consider that we’re talking about billions and billions of dollars in resources. You know. And that kind of money, you’re going to get corruption in the highest places in government, and in corporations.

And that’s what South Dakota’s going through. Ever since Custer, I think. They’ve been doing that to the Lakotas and Dakotas continuously.

AC This harassment, this land-grabbing, this genocide, really.

JG Really. And that’s what it is. And I’m looking here reading through these transcripts of Arlo’s trial, here, and man It’s just….kangaroo court is too easy a term. It’s typical I guess, South Dakota.

AC Another drunk Indian.

JG Another drunk Indian attitude, yea.

AC Speaking of that trial, and those transcripts, in your heart, how did you feel when you’re seeing some of the statements from people who might have been friends of yours, that you may or may not have expected to testify the way that they did, how are you feeling about that? What goes through your heart and mind?
JG Well, it hurts. You know. It hurts really deep. These people that are doing this, that are taking this stand, and this rumor’s been persistent I guess for years now. Why, WHY? couldn’t any one of these people have come and talked to me, or ask me about it? Over all these years, if they were hearing the rumours, why couldn’t they come talk to me?

AC So John Trudell never spoke with you?

JG Not a word, not a peep.

AC So no one never asked you if you were there at her murder?

JG None of the AIM leadership has ever talked to me about this, or anybody else for that matter. All the people who’ve written about this story, made documentaries about it.

AC Now the CBC interviewed you, right?

JG the Fifth Estate. Then they chopped it up. They interviewed me for three and a half hours, chopped it up and used one minute of my interview.

AC Right. So some of those people are old friends in that trial saying those things. What do you think has made them act this way, say these things?

JG I think the FBI did their job really well. Really Well. With their misinformation, and rumor mongering, and they just bought right into it. And took it hook, line and sinker. And now they all point the fingers, everybody’s pointing the finger at everybody, as I understand.

What’s that all about? They’re on each other. I don’t think you can get two of the AIM leadership in one room together for five minutes without probably doing each other in.

AC That’s divide and conquer. Old tactics.

JG Exactly. And they fell for it. And you know. So we’ll see, I don’t know. These people who want to cooperate with the FBI and make this thing farce carry on, is you know like to me in my mind, well they’re as bad as criminals. Criminals that are doing everything they can to keep Leonard incarcerated, and just incarcerated Arlo.

AC And have you spoken to Arlo since all of this happened.

JG No, I haven’t.

AC And how do you feel about his testimony? His defense was based on the fact that you pulled the trigger.

JG Well, if you listen to it all down there, everybody’s pointing the finger, putting the blame on me, because I’m the guy that’s not there to defend hisself. I must have been responsible for the whole reign of terror. And then, considering well I don’t know why Arlo… the whole thing is doctored.

He’s been coached all the way through. And what I hear about Arlo, he’s not very stable to start with.

AC Well, one would imagine if YOU were approached about this story and offered immunity, that the same thing happened with Arlo. I mean that’s how I feel about it. I know I’m not supposed to put my two cents in, but I do sometimes. So then the fact is that you feel that Arlo was approached with the same type of thing? You feel that most of the people that cooperated had the same kind of visits?

JG Probably. Probably And I believe that probably people like Trudell and that are coming up and testifying were probably threatened to be blackballed or blacklisted in LA. No more recording contracts. Or whatever. You know. They’ve got a lot of weight on these guys.

Russell Means is going for a pardon from Janklow. Can you believe that? I couldn’t. Where has this man’s mind gone to?

AC So, sometimes you feel alone in your strength? What keeps you going, John? What keeps you clear?

JG I believe in what I know to be right. What I know to be truth. That’s what keeps me strong. And as I believe in the truth, and that’s why I feel positive about this. And I want to make something positive out of all of this.

AC And how do you see that going? How do you see this next coming weeks? You’ve got an extradition hearing coming up, and after that?

JG I feel good. We went to court yesterday. We got another month, so April 30,is the next court date. That’s to appoint a judge, and to set a date for the actual extradition hearing to start. And we’ve got a team of four lawyers now, so I feel good about that. Extradition experts. We’re ready to fight the extradition; to oppose it any way we can…we’re still putting our legal team together.

AC So, what makes you positive. What keeps you going on this? What good do you imagine coming from this, John Graham?

JG What do I imagine good coming from this? You know If Anna Mae were alive today, if she were not locked up for the rest of her life like Leonard, she would be working dedicatedly 24/7 to free Leonard, and I know that. That’s way I believe. And all these people who are doing the finger-pointing and everything else, they talk about due process. Well, what about Leonard’s due process? If anything good can come out of this, then maybe the crimes against that man will be exposed, and maybe that man can be immediately and unconditionally freed. Because it is wrong what they’re doing to him.

AC And what about what they’re doing to you, John Graham?

JG Well Okay, I don’t like what they’re doing to me, and it’s pretty much torn my life apart and everything you know. But the forty days I spent in jail,there you know, all I could think about and what gave me strength to get through that was what Leonard had been going through for the last 27, 28 years. You know. And I have nothing to whine about. And yes this is a fight. Yes.

And we’ve been up against the state before; it’s not the first time. So things are not surprising me, the way they’re doing. That’s why I choose to remain positive about this, and I think somewhere we’re going to find a court that has some integrity. And that’s going to hear the case and hear the truth and hear all of the facts and not withhold any information, not with hold any evidence, not fabricate any evidence. And one of these days we’re going to find a court where indigenous activists could get a fair hearing.
And I am hoping that is here in Canada.

AC Do you have any final words to say to people in general, people who want either to support you, support your truth coming out.

JG Well, first of all, greetings to everybody. Warm greetings from my heart of happiness and health to everybody out there listening. And a very big thank you from my heart for all the supporters. And that is

This is going to be a fight. I understand that we’re in for a long fight, but the support is one of my main reasons why I’m so . positive. Because of the support I’ve been receiving since this all started happening. I never realized how big this thing mushroomed. And I’m so I’m really grateful for that. And I’d like people to know that. And log onto our web page; there’s information on how people can help. Write letters to our justice minister. To stop the extradtion. There is no fair trial in South Dakota. If the FBI can fabricate enough evidence to warrant a trial, then I would like that trial to be here in Canada.

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i am a freelance writer who recently covered the trial of Arlo Looking Cloud for Pacifica Radio KPFK, Los Angeles. during early december i will also cover the Graham extradition hearings for Pacifica, KFPK. my first book Who Would Unbraid Her Hair: the legend of Annie Mae was a tribute to the life and times of Anna Mae. more rants, click here.....